i dont’ remember their rationale, they had a reason back then, ask lee/banana/read the top20 i think they explained it somewhere 
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The big problem you guys seem to have with Paikis is that he used absolute minimum rolls on his BIS gear. The hue and cry is that it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to get such items realistically in game. I agree.
However I also think Paikis has a point in that the build that he concentrated on (the Korba Trickster) has EQUALLY unrealistic high roll BIS items. With that in mind, why don’t the top 20 builds use AVERAGE rolls on the BIS items (or even slightly above average if that is indeed what a normal farming gamer would see)? Would that change the top 20 list?
Well I’ve skimmed this heated thread, and I will say that my biggest takeaway is that trying to use min-roll items as evidence of a problem might perhaps be a bit disingenuous, or at least be no less of a problem than a run based off of max-rolled items. Both are cosmically unlikely to happen.
In the case of the top 20 thread, their parameters for scoring builds were spelled out in the beginning, including a score for how hard the build is to assemble with legitimate farming. Given that, I’m not sure how this is misleading. ARPGs are notorious for builds getting shared that are unattainable by mere mortals, and often times even if someone found every item in the list and assembled it, they would still get inferior results because they are not as experienced of a pilot. Seems like a moot point to get angry at the writer because we ourselves cannot write the same novel.
I do think having some runs with average items would be a great frame of reference, or even scoring builds based on how effective they are as they come together rather than only upon completion, but I’m not going to tell anyone how to spend their free time and that list already seemed like a monumental effort.
That said, there is also a reason I changed the original top 20’s title to “an opinion”, and the sequel to it followed that example. There seem to be differing opinions dueling here, let’s remember that and keep it civil.
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that’s actually not the case, we specifically direct them to the beginner guide if/when applicable or doable, or even if not outright a beginner guide with budget setup exists it’s usually “mix/take part Crab’s guide and Ulvars guide and combine these/the build used attributable skills” - there is even a dedicated thread to make redirection simpler
Many of those budget guides then also, to more or less varying degree, lead direct into the top20 “end”, bonk warder, nerys saboteur etc.
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no, again, that’s literally the point
there are 2 unrealistic elements used here in this thread (neither of them are the top20) - and tehy are based on misunderstandings on how the items work and how many spawns is needed to get an “unrealistic top20” version
As demonstrated, out of 100 spawns i could not get a single of Paikis suggested 3 main desirables min rolls (obv not 0seed roll either since just not doable), but i got multiple above avg rolls, several “on par” with the top20 and a couple above the top 20.
I had the exact same result on the 45*2 axe spawns; not a single results ended up with 3 desirables min rolled, 1 for each ended up with 2 desirables min rolled; multiple above avg rolls, and again a couple better than top 20.
Both his chosen arguments/examples is more unrealistic than however unrealistic the top20 might be or might be perceived, that’s the whole issue…
It does not take 50 spawns to get an/multiple avg rolled item(s), it doesn’t even take 50 spawns to get an/many above avg rolled item(s), it does however take more to get the suggested many min rolls argued…
please please reveal the existence of a “perfect” avg seed existing across multiple items similar to the 0sedd 
- it would make things 1000x easier
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I would be interested in average seed. That would be good for builds actually.
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without knowing, i’m guessing it doesn’t exist like the 0 seed does, since the same seed (aside from 0) across multiple items seem to result in different rolls/stat ranges.
but would be super neat for testing purposes if somewhat close to avg fixed seed was doable 
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That’s a neat phrase. I may steal this one for personal use.
(@Gnomish_Inquisition may have something to say about this and it’s legality in a court of law) 
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Its not only the huge flaws in the video, its also the context. Paikis is know for not liking the Top 20 list and it is really hard not to interpret this as an delibierate attempt at downplaying the list, Which took months of work mind you.
again as all of us are saying, this is just wrong
Because that would briong question like: Average on all stats? only the desired stats? if the desired stats are average but the rest is maxed is it still cosnidered averge and so on. And also you as a farming player would not do this either. You pick the best item you have for that slot, you dont deliberatly stifle yourself just to be more “realistic”
I think Z summed it up the best with this:
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And how long would it take a normal non GD Stash player to get 100 Korba’s Fury sets? Lets assume they have the BP and can craft/transmute the set - how long to get the materials needed to create the 400 items necessary to get 100 sets?
i… i don’t even know what you’re trying to argue? - and at this point i’m not sure how to get it across so you can follow.
I’m not arguing attempting to get 45 sets, i’m using a “higher than normal sample size”, to demonstrate that Paikis examples are more unrealistic, than even the top20
it’s simple, try to follow
100 spawns = 0 argued min roll results,
it yielded multiple usable results (ie avg rolls and even above avg rolls)
what is more realistic 10/100 or 0/100?
spoiler; paikis’s argument is the one that didn’t happen once in 100 spawns (technically combined 190 spawns but also technically 3 different items so we will let that slide)
if you are arguing that A is unrealistic and B is either equally unrealistic or less unrealistic: A should not end up with higher numbers than B, and it should definitely not make B end up in literally 0/100 or 0/190 = B is more unrealistic than A
Paikis is arguing B, “we” are arguing A… the effective numbers are on our side… *
(and yes i’m well aware of data sat not being potentially representative because size etc etc - but still works for every argument and counter point raised in this thread)
*and to clarify just if someone missed it, i was obviously not attempting to get an actual 0seed roll ingame; i was merely trying to min roll the 3 desired stats chosen by paikis, %dmg flat dmg and speed “at the same time” on the axes, - even used the same criteria on the rings despite that should be easier because lower roll range, but still ended up with no results(which i will happily submit to probably being weird rng as i legit expected atleast 1 triple min roll on alkamos)
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Can we circle back to the question “why do you even need 100 Korba sets”?
Every other build is equally subject to bad item rolls. Literally every single one. And last I checked, item seeds get rerolled each time a patch targets an item, so… Why? Can Korba clear SR75 with suboptimal items? GG, build is good enough. Can it clear SR90 and celestials? Congrats, the build is in major league. That’s it, you’re done.
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This thread is so odd, it’s like arguing over who’s unicorn is more real. 
Anything that has been shown so far = epic. But it’s changes to crafting and the feature you mentioned plus the altar that I feel the game needs the most.
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Is Item (Seed) Rerolling coming in FoA? I know affix rerolling is, but what about just trying to get better versions by getting a better seed? 
My point exactly. Whether it is a wimp unicorn or an uber-unicorn it is still a unicorn.
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iirc Zantai said it depends on what/how it’s targeted?
so like if it’s just phys res value on boots getting avg adjusted up/down 1% it should only affect that single line
if a new line is added or removed, or some “crucial” part of it (legit don’t remember the example used), then it should affect the others/cause a cascade
not 100% sure but i think that’s what he said atleast when someone asked
that was my expectation atleast, that it would work just like when you transmute items at inventory (which effectively rerolls seed) - obv speculation until affix mechanic actualyl revealed
With the big difference that one of those “Unicorns” is just a well bred racing horse, which is rare and the other is a litteral Unicorn noone has ever seen before
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Yeah, you’re probably right. That part is definitely the context I was asking about back in the day.
Several people are explaining it to you in simple terms that you and Paikis are wrong and giving solid arguments why and this is a comment that you decide to answer to, pretending like those arguments don’t exist.
Not only that but you also outright just offended and downlplayed our work calling it a “fantasy” while not giving any proof and ignoring all counter-arguments.
And after all that you keep calling this thread toxic.
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I guess. How many hours would you have to play to reach 1-5% from the posted Korba build? Does it matter. Nope. But do human beings, following a guide (especially with little experience) know that without reading the mentality that was used to make those builds?
We all know the other one is nil.
/respect to the top20 playtesters. That’s a lot of work.
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