On "Farming"

Love the game, as my Son said to me “it feels a lot like what D3 should have been.” I had to try it then and I agree.

On the Farming Topic, my opinion is that farming is a very tedious way to acquire gear. I did not read all 51 pages of replies so this may have been stated already, but I think a better way is to allow players to get great gear by either having the ability to craft items, or have NPC’s do this with materials you provide. Randomness is not really desired when making your ‘epic’ pieces, so this needs to be considered. Lowering random stats should come with a cost, and these pieces should be fairly expensive to make. Requiring rare material is not a good thing either as then you have to farm the mats which would defeat the purpose.

Melting items down to gain mats would be sensible also, though I have no suggestions on how to balance the whole process. One idea is a global auction house where players can offer the great drops they do get that are for classes they are not and buy the drop they are seeking from someone else. Maybe that’s planned, but I’m pretty new to the game and have played more than read the forums :wink:

Everything you mentioned is pretty much in the game, but all have some farming requirement, be it for components, mats, iron ore, recipes or the items themselves - not to mention faction rewards. You mention that they should be expensive to make, but then state that requiring rare materials is not a good thing … I’m having trouble understanding the ‘expensive’ word, because… well, rare materials are expensive, they’re the epitome of expensive.

Most of the farming I do in this game is fun and doesn’t feel tedious… sometimes it does, but, no more than trying to get a Zod rune or a Griffons Eye in D2. It feels right, at the moment, except a few sets are easier to get than others… like, redemption set, for example, feels far too easy to get whereas the Guardsman set feels impossible - relying on recipes basically, to finish the set - right along the lines you’re talking about, but too expensive for a level 22 item, imo. HOWEVER - the more you play, the more stuff you accumulate, and the easier it is to get / craft this gear for future playthroughs.

IMO, farming isn’t the issue, it’s storage space to store your farmed items, which is far too small for the volume of components and items found in this game.

When there was a Poll about component completion bonuses I was more for the “random completion bonuses” option since you have more possibilities for making an unique build (even though I already have 9 mules that are totally stuffed with components only…). However, the more I think about it, the more I incline to having a “stable” completion bonuses that would allow stacking of components (saving significant storage space). Components would also immediately play much “bigger” role in bounties, crafting and farming (i.e. increased longevity of the game with much better Profit/Loss ratio than the current component design has).

Let me explain why.

If you have RNG on a completion bonus and get „unwanted“ bonus 20-30 times in a row on an extremely rare or expensive component then you will most probably get frustrated since your effort is rewarded with „trash“ just because of RNG. That is definitely not a profit in my opinion.

By changing components to have a specific bonuses will developers get more room for creating some unique components with awesome stats/bonuses. Of course, much more components would have to be added into the game in order to keep the „diversity aspect“ of the current design (has to be balanced so it won’t introduce storage issues with uncompleted components).

I imagine it would be set in a similar way as the Runes in Diablo 2 in terms of rarity vs reward (not talking about Runewords, although that would be more than superb ;)). By that I mean having more tiers of components (already ingame) where the most powerful ones would be very rare.

Little example: completion bonus of Chains of Oleron / Hallowed Ground changed to +1 to all Skills since + skills bonuses are the most wanted on the current component versions (drop chance would have to be significantly lowered, which is OK since you have guaranteed powerful bonuses).

I was thinking about a somewhat similar system on the components, but I would not competely remove the random bonuses. But still, instead of a lot of random useless bonuses, the components should have only like 4-5-6 but really useful bonuses with fixed numbers, for example on the hallowed ground the +1 to all skill for the different classes, that’s only 6 version, or on a weapon component, for example searing ember, it should have
1: 8% fire damage,
2: 8% physical damage
3: 4% attack speed,
4: 8 offensive ability.
This is 4 version. Maybe 6% total damage as fifth. Who needs searing ember with aether damage, or 3 physique and such? We have a different component if we wanna raise the physique of our character or for the aether damage.

So when we have these much smaller pool of possible useful bonuses, with fixed numbers, the drop rate for the common components can be reduced a bit, and we should be able to stack the components which have the same bonuses. So we have now 4-5-6 stacks of the same component with the diferent bonuses. So this system would not remove the completion bonuses completely but it should solve a lot of issues regarding the storage space and the sometimes frustrating useless random rolls. I would really like to see this system implemented in the game. I hope the devs read this.

I’m curious what the counter argument is to NOT having extensive storage? I have played a bit and raised money for another tab but why not have like 50 tabs to begin with? Is it somehow ‘fun’ to have a project of raising gold (edit: iron bits) for tabs? I raised for one more tab and it felt like I should have had it to begin with and it wasn’t particularly rewarding. And even 2 tabs is nowhere near enough…

Ok I got into complaining mode but my original curiousity was what the possible counter argument could be for not having a lot of storage.

Create explained their reasoning in Grim Misadventure #56 - also see the following three dev posts. See [Tool] GD Stash for more storage.

I don’t totally understand. I think at least 50% of people used TQ vault (mod). Or am I wrong? So why would the developers make me want to ignore their game until release because I am some degree of a hoarder? I would be willing to pay GD/Crate 5 extra dollars for unlimited space. The way it is now makes me motivated to ignore the game until GD Vault (mod) comes out at the game release (to play… I have paid long time and played a few characters). Hoarding is not uncommon. For Sacred 2 my clan had several accounts for mules so we could twink our characters. ‘Hoarding’ to some degree is very common and only in extremes you have someone with 20 copies of uniques (for personal use). edit: and I also play totally untwinked sometimes…

But as it is now not having stash makes me think “oh I will play something else and wait for GD vault mod”.

But I am ignorant of how hard (time) it takes the programmers to make an infinite stash.

Anyways I am not trying to make trouble and will drop this and read the full threads you linked (read some part already). Thank you.

edit: I do understand from the article you linked that there are two types of players who do not like to have too much stash. One type gets overwhelmed seeing all the junk or what have you. It is too bad we both can’t get the product we want like individuals. I can use mules I suppose.

edit: I think the type of player of me is not a hoarder but wants storage for hard core characters so I can ‘team effort’ earn them items and feed them the items… If I am just making a soft core character I can just advance them and the loot earned never ‘poofs’. For hardcore ‘team effort’ I want to play one type of build (that I have no idea if it is a good build) and then save all the items I find so that I have resources for future hardcore builds (of one or multiple types of builds). So I am not really a hoarder but rather I want a hardcore experience with only the gear protected from ‘poofing’. So maybe there is more than 3 types of players as far as gear? This was shaped by my Sacred 2 experience belonging to a clan. In Titanquest (before Sacred 2) I used vault but I didn’t like my experience of having legendary items in normal act4. So I experimented with TQ vault but ultimately my complete playthrough characters I did them self farming. Sacred 2 community taught me the experience of having a hard core character heavily twinked by the community. In some ways it is quite silly to be hardcore in silver difficulty with niob shopped/smithed gear, but yet did I have fun? Yes! There still is a hard core element even if your gear does not poof. You may not lose the gear but if my level 177 shadow warrior dies then I have to start again at level 1 so yes it is still a hardcore element. This is interesting to me to reflect on how my Sacred 2 experience affected me. I can use mules until game release! Love so many elements of GD game!! ::GD love fest!!:: Thank you Crate (and community)!!

edit: another thought is that hardcore is totally different fro GD/TQ versus Sacred 2 series. Sacred 2 had nothing like Dactyls for example. In GD I intend to play hardcore without the expectation that any character might complete the game. In contrast in Sacred 2 type world there is no Dactyl and you can pretty much make a character that is impossible to die.

edit (regarding the tool linked and swapping files versus muling): For that tool and even a vault mod (or stash files swapping) there is a negative side to that for me. I am not very computer savy. I have had two games (one TQIT by coincidence) become corrupt and even uninstalling re-installing did not work. The other game was Neverwinter Nights 1. So for me when I fool with my computer and files there is a very real risk that I will screw up that game on the computer permamently. When I do install mods I need cookbook instructions. And i am not total idiot I have been successful with mods just there is a very real risk that I will screw up the game permanently. For me I would rather use mules than swap files just because it makes me nervous. And mules and file swapping both would in any case be tedious and immersion breaking. But don’t assume that all players are computer savvy.

Having 50 tabs wouldn’t solve the issue of having tons of items with random values in them. The real problem with ARPGs is the incessant micromanagement with items. Picking them up. Comparing your drops to your existing items. Shuffling items to mules. Selling them one-by-one to merchant. To me that’s not very appealing way to play. I wrote of another system that would really improve the sense of collecting valuables on another thread:


I won’t argue that you’re right or wrong about this, but I would suggest being careful with such assumptions, because that’s all they are - assumptions. Maybe 50% of the people who frequented the TQ forums used TQVault. Maybe. I don’t have any metrics on that. But I’d hazard a guess and say that those who didn’t frequent the TQ forums (like myself) also didn’t hear much about the tool (wasn’t until after getting TQ:IT a second time on Steam that I heard about and used it). And, of course, that playerbase is going to be hard to quantify in terms of size.

Point being, remember that there’s likely to be a TON of people playing GD that we will never know about, and we will never hear their opinions. Hence, for these people, Crate must create their game as they envision it with the hopes that those playing are doing so because they’re satisfied with Crate’s vision. Ultimately, we’re all hopefully satisfied with that vision, too, but those of us here on the forums don’t speak for the entirety of the playerbase even if/when we ever agree on anything (which doesn’t seem to be too often ;)).

Yes Ceno you are right. In hindsight I think probably very few used vault. It’s just mind boggling for me that some people would dislike an infinite stash. Reading about the types of people I empathize and I can understand but I just can’t imagine for me not liking that feature.

Hello. I forced raise the issue of the size of the stash, despite the fact that this topic has been a discussion. As far as I know, the main argument from developers against an infinite stash is unavoidable quickly drowning of players in piles of crap, which they will collect. It is frankly insulting to the normal players. Why should we suffer because of the hypothetical idiots, incapable of self-discipline? I play Titan Quest for many years and use TQVault, and a have few chests for different categories of useful items. But in accordance with your “logic” i must already to swim in tons of crap with totally crazy look and scream “I WANT MOOOORE!!!” Seriously, what a crap?!

So, here are some arguments in favor of large (or infinite) stash size.

  1. The game has a large number of components for improve and craft items. Furthermore, each component of a certain type has a certain bonus, which can be useful in different situations. Thus, the personal stash of character jammed by components (or items), and when playing on hardcore lose it all because of the lack of free space in shared stash is simply unthinkable stupid.
  2. There is also a large number of items that are useful for different builds. Because of two-class system in the game at present time has lots of possible builds, and this number will increase by N - 1 for each new N of masteries. Naturally, many players (myself included) like to experiment with builds, but how is it possible if I can not store items suitable for my future crazy ideas? What do you suggest - sell rare items, and then to farm it again as completely idiot?
  3. With the increase in level cap come new items and even within your paradigm it is necessary to increase stash size, but you don’t doing this. And what will happen when there will be items 60+, 70+ levels etc.?
  4. Players on hardcore-veteran (like me) are in need of an additional place to an even greater extent for keeping spare items because their characters - SURPRISE! - sometimes die!
  5. Finally, sometimes you just want to do collecting items and sets. So why can not I keep all honestly collected content in game i bought?

Seriously, the little stash size was the most fatal mistake of Titan Quest, and in your new project you seem to want to correct the mistakes made then? Then your current position about this topic especially strange.

Perhaps it will be good idea to make a vote at a forum on this issue?

Not going to rebut each point, they all say the same thing. Game has stuff, you want to keep it all.

Sorry, it is not a vault, it is a transfer stash. It is designed to move stuff from toonA to toonB. IMO, 1 page is plenty. And yes, I am one of the idiots that cannot stop putting stuff in the stash so require it to be of reasonable size so I can actually find the one thing that needed to be in the stash, in the sea of the other crap I keep, even without a toon planning to use it.

Poll has been done, it is a polarized issue without consensus.

Uncontrollable collecting of crap is a behaviour deviation. But normal players can’t obtain comfortable gameplay because developers want to prevent emotional trauma of players with this deviation. Amazing…

Why not evolve it to vault then?

Seriously, the most demanded plugins for D2 and TQ where PlugY and TQVault. Quite self-explaining, eh? Players want these things and not giving them to players is a mistake which will be used once by one of the smart competitors.

VanHelsing has a much larger stash - I don’t hear anyone blames it for this reason. Torchlight has much larger stash - the same thing, no blames for this.

I can understand Crate does not want to spend time for this task - completely understandable reason. But, for the sake of truth, please don’t try to put a logical reasoning under this decision. Just say honestly - we don’t want to do it. Philosophical reasons “players are wrong when they think they want it” look lame on my sight. Some sort of “you play it wrong” myth.

One more thing - you can just make cost progression for every new stash tab. Or you can to add one more violet item with low chance of drop and make
this item necessary for stash improvement. So nobody will drown in crap and hardcore players will be happy.

This is already a thing.

Because of

So they have kind of said they don’t want to do it, and gave a good reason why.

Personally I still think expanding the personal stash is the route to take to solve all of these problems…

I mean every new tab in infinite stash.

I made this idea in the thread about stash, but will add here because people are talking.

It stands to reason to make ‘purging’ as easy as possible to get the stash back in shape. Make one or two button clicking such as ctrl+leftclick on an item make it delete or sell. This way if you get overwhelmed you can very easily
‘cut back the weeds’.

edit: it would still be a problem organizing ‘tabs’… so maybe you have 15+ (whatever you used) tabs to degrees of purgeness, but it is not too organized. but at least with ctrl + leftclick you could very rapidly delete uwnanted items.

I offered a solution suitable for both kinds of players here. It can be implemented easily without hard work and much coding. So I guess it is not that good reason :slight_smile: Just an artifical excusion. Anyway, we will have to take what we are given. I’m just sad about it.

The major problem that I have with farming is that it isn’t rewarding since there’s plenty of players who use trainer of save-file dupes to get items in a really fast way.

I enjoy farming followed by trading off the items I don’t want with other players. What I don’t enjoy is getting the feeling that the guy I’m trading with duped his stash a couple of times so he is able to trade out everything. It basically fucks (pardon my french) the farming system because there’s too many of X item going around due to duping/use of trainer.

So before you start worrying about farming I think you should add a mode that is only playable when your save games go into the steam cloud and NOT your own computer (to prevent duping items). Also getting rid of third party software like trainers is something I’d really like to see.

Once you have a “clean” game discussions about farming become viable but right now, not so much.