One particular build that was OP, still being strong and another being strong only because of particular items shows the opposite of diversity.
Now, if you had shown like 5 or 6 different ways to build Chaos or Physical pet builds and then kill Cally under 15 mins in all of them, you might have a point.
What follows prove that to be false
^
Because it was built specifically for that. And at the cost of speed.
Play Kaoscats and let me know if it also lets you do these things with massive ease.
Not all pet builds are alike.
Because that is kind of my specialty. It is not about pets, but how I build things.
I disagree.
Problem is you are talking from your perspective. I see a different and much worse picture.
You speak as if Kaoscats is new or as if I wasn’t testing it before it got posted on the forums. It was born in Discord when I was still a part of it.
It didn’t fuel anything for me to make a Cruci pet build then and it won’t now. Mostly because the reason why I ended up becoming a builder in the first pace was due to lack of non Cruci focused, easy to play builds that offer you the safety you spoke of.
Look up AoM era Sigatrev’s builds for reference. With FG, I ended up completely steering into a different direction.
Or everyone else’s (atleast those who remain) is too low.
non of what is said was false, and the fact that you don’t need to copy paste your birbs to accomplish it proves that,
or that from a (casual) player perspective, when 1 build makes you sweat and and another bores you accomplishing the same feat, if the sweaty build could even accomplish it
you are completely reducing the factual strength of pets as “it’s only AiO/strong if you do this 1 build/ex mine” - when that’s not the case. Because they are mad strong by default, with little “investment”, hence the mention of “ease of gearing”.
possibly something you should take yourself up on then? Chaos blightfiend maybe ? @_@
this is totally true, and why i want more diversity, and not bog standard beastcaller trinkets sr 85 only criterias. I want stuff to be made with Skeles, doggos and BurpFatties. Ofc that “to me” it doesn’t have to do much higher than 76, doesn’t mean it can’t or shouldn’t be a potential to push for others - but you dismiss “all” pet builds (competitiveness) as an impossibility post patch, also ignoring MIs, which just doesn’t help pets or your argument
i didn’t follow your conjurer until i had to/wanted to kill Crate, that’s how easy and strong they are, compared to 98% of all other builds
no the problem is you’re unwilling to even try it… that’s the freakin sad thing… all, whatever, potential “lost”… just because you wouldn’t give it a shake like when zantai tested your tolerance before (and i get it can get tedious constantly feeling attacked when you play “1” thing)
meh, didn’t know that, had kinda hoped it would spark a fire… guess cruci pets are out then
No, what it proves is that the build doesn’t need to be done exactly as given to accomplish it.
Nothing more or less.
No, I am reducing it to clear cut definitions of what is strong and what is not, when not looked at from a casual player’s perspective.
They aren’t. No build is. Or make a random “mad strong by default” build and post results.
See that is the problem, when you make such claims and have nothing to back them with other than that you played one of my best builds and found it easy on content that is not considered as challenging by any of the Veteran pet builders, you don’t have a ground to stand on.
That will go to Vitality builds with Dark One, unless something has changed.
I am saying that each patch is reducing viability and variety of builds though. If I could prove myself wrong, then I wouldn’t make the statement to begin with.
That was always possible and is possible. I am saying that there isnt diversity to match my standards, not yours.
Hell, I will prove it to you. Let me know what build you want and I will make it for you, right here and now, even Skeletons. Obviously won’t be tested. But I will leave that to you.
I refuse to believe the anecdote that you killed Ravager and Mogdrogen easily with a random pet conjurer with no sense of direction regarding the build.
Ok, so… say that I ask you to touch a hot metal rod.
Say that you have never touched a hot metal rod before.
How much enthusiasm will you have and how willing would you be to actually touch it?
it’s shows that the are so strong that it is “easy” even for a crazy novice like me then(now?), and ulvar, to make it happen without a guide/professional template
except, as mentioned meni times now, your definition of strong surpasses that of most other elite builders, even madlee…
except i didn’t, and i have.
the fact that you can take any pet build, from 1-100 with the most ease and success, proves they are mad strong, by default - and i’ve leveled a non pet build or two through my time so i have comparison to draw on.
They are mad strong, by default, not just through leveling, but gearing, because they are so stupid strong even without defensive gear they kill base content, which is not comparable to regular builds that need certain stat checks, pets don’t.
They are mad strong by default, displayed in not just their ability to handle all content, but does so with ease of gearing, (which is no doubt easer because of their base strength), and because more than any other build you get “funneled” into efficiency, that becomes viable for endgame, ie beastcaller builds not needing to copy paste yours/the nr1 version in existence to handle the same feats, altho “lesser”, but still with ease, from a casual perspective
^and yes that is strength of “class”/pet and build. Casual players not pushing their builds to 85+ doesn’t diminish that default strength and power, when those same casual players either are unlikely or completely cannot do remotely those same feats in the same manner and with same ease, yes that demonstrably proves how strong pets are, by default
when i say ease of gearing i don’t just mean target farmable powerful items (of which there are plenty for pets mind you), i talk about the fact that you can make a darn powerful build, strong, and stronger than many others, in “weak” items compared. Not even “simple accessible” items like MIs faction/crafts, heck just regular freakin trash, because anything not skeletons are so strong by default they get powerful in laughable gear - and can then gear up even easier
the only builds that have an easier time for end game gearing are those with strong target farmable items like Dark One krieg etc, and i will 100% grant you Trinkets can be a pita with RNG potential, luckily beastcaller can be crafted, but even “until then” pets are strong in whatever scraps got assembled
^i know this because i don’t stash my 100 tons, i level them, and i level them “as is”, not “lvl the easy/fast/efficient way then respec at lvl 94”, and i leveled most of my pet characters before the influx of MIs
then we are back to you artificially self-imposing lack of diversity onto GD, which is totally your right, but doesn’t mean it’s so, but maybe you don’t give things a fair shot, like patch 1.1.9 (and i’m also not saying you are obligated to either ofc)
less sense of direction than any other build, i actually didn’t even realize pet resistance was a vital thing of concern until you and Zantai’s battle about bird resistances - and still “basic” pet item funneling made it happen. (and i’m not claiming it was a 2min kill or anything, there is a reason i don’t bother with celestials, because default approaches tend to be more sloggish than speed optimized per individual celestials)
^and it was still monumentally easier than my other characters, even the ones directly set up for their fight, which took effort/research. With the conjurer it was just, spawn, something dies/got aggro, run in circles like a headless chicken spawning pets off cooldown if they died again. that’s it…
-can not say the same “strength funnel” for skeletons/necro builds tho, will totally give you that (for endgame)
yeye, but are team deep SR saying that’s the standard/performance metric to go by, or just what’s possible? that’s the difference, you’re setting your entire baseline on a performance metric unrivaled by 98% of builds, even by other elite builders…
I thought my pet build was garbage, and then suddenly it was broken and OP etc.
I have 0 knowledge about pet builds, as mentioned, I just saw that I had those items and did some read about if such build has been made before. All I could read was “physical pet builds sucks” but I made it anyway and kept it “hidden” for the entire 1.1.8.X patch basically
my point isn’t even about optimized pet builds being strong and/or OP’
but that by default, anything “not skeletons” are so strong that it takes less effort and know-how, than any other class, to make work, and work well. Heck if anything my attempt at “tonky” skeletons displays what happens when a casual starts putting more thought/knowledge into it.
But even as “regular” (leveling) builds, pet demonstrably display their default strength, when you can level in trash items, and any other build requires specific stat checks or die, but pets can survive/manage on base defenses and their ungodly healthpool - which then just gets default magnified when slowly assembling endgame gear/scraps
^which is also part of the "godtier"equation i attribute to pets
I have 0 knowledge about pets compared to you and others, but since I have general decent knowledge and experience with the game I of course know something
My actual game play time with pets is less than 300h with great certainty.
I mean I kinda swallowed all the “physical pet builds sucks” which was a major reason why I basically did not even tell or showed this build to anyway, I thought it was pure meme garbage
did i say easy? i said easier than my other characters
apples and potatoes, there is vast difference in “cutting the game in half”, and “limiting” your standards to what other 98% of elite builders do - which is still content 99% of regular players don’t play
did i say that? anywhere? remotely? if you want to cherry pick words, at least keep them “somewhat” in the context they were delivered
starting to think you might be selectively reading now, since i’m not gonna insult your reading comprehension…
how many of Madless builds were AiOs, with an SR85 clear metric - while used as a “pass/fail” criteria
and you can try say “but he favoured Cruci”, but he still made builds that could do other tihngs too - so it’s all in your own choice
i said i made a beastcaller conjurer, myself - and when i wanted to kill Crate, i followed yours, that’s the wee difference there, noob beastcaller, still successful, your beastcaller, (way) more successful
-that point being of how easy pets can be in terms of default funneling you into a strong build
and i know/say this as someone that play many different builds, and none with the same ease of power “funneling”, because for other builds you need to pay attention to crap ton of things, with pets it is/was “bonus to all pets”, and no more indepth knowledge required for “casual success”. Where as with “any” other build you need to pay attention to “everything”, and something as little as 3-6% lifesteal can make a world of difference. pets allow you to go in (way) more “blind”
You know why. Have told you why. Well, atleast how it began.
Things may or may not be the case now, but people still ask me for non green builds. I don’t build for myself nor do I post all the builds that I make for myself.
I get the arguments for both sides here (sorry didn’t read all 100+ posts here ). Myself i am bit divided on the exact approach. I don’t do stash builds, only what is available in game. With all the pre/suffix variations it is hard to get green items with exactly how you want them.
Personally i prefer uniques over greens. But this is also due to the fact my time to play is limited so i try to farm things to open other characters. Total majority of items in majority of builds are uniques, so that’s better use of time i think. Yes, exceptions do apply like bloodsworn offhand.
Farming uniques has added benefit of getting all sorts of items for builds you don’t even aim for (if that makes any sense even).
it is, very relevant indeed
because when a casual player can not only accomplish it, but with less effort and more ease, than any other build, yes it speaks to the inherent default strength
did i say that? ever, the whole “talk” has been about lowering your AiO/high sr requirement
you don’t skirt and argument by countering with a point never raised.
casual metrics, and the ones mentioned there, are exactly good examples of a class/builds potential default strenght, and you not seeing that is, strange
and did i say that, again? or have i repeatedly) argued that part of diversity is different builds accomplishing different things, contra your performance criteria which is an AiO+high sr metric. Unsatisfied/unwilling trying to make a cruci pet build, understandable during earlier days but these days they are rare, so give it a shot, or you know be ok with an elite builder metric that doesn’t do “exactly” what you had in mind, but still epic proportions, ala madlee you are limiting perceived pet variety, by not wanting to “lower” your standards to ex madlee levels, regardless of cruci times then still SR - which might open up 100 more pet builds - but according to you they don’t exist, when it’s potentially your “beyond requirements” that make that happen, not because “different builds do different things” or jack of all trades pet curse…
1 killing lokarr (and sr 65) is successful, and they are undisputed successful because that’s all the game “needs”. People not wanting to gdstash toons would (maybe) like to kill lokar and get some leveling items, so a build handling that is indeed “successful” even if on a casual level. Likewise builds “Only” need to be capable of efficient farm, thus sr 66 is “technically” all that’s required of a build - and if such builds just happen to kill Mogdrogen and ravager on top well that’s just gravy you’ve just completed 99.9999% of content on a “weak” and “unsuccessful” build…
love how you keep pushing the goalpost, top notch arguing at this point
and you’d be “wrong”,
they are definitely among the easiest to lvl true, but they have 1 “critical flaw” compared to pet leveling, and that is they are highly dependent on items, pet leveling isn’t, and can lvl in trash and get by on nearly raw HP, neither FW soldier or PS shammy combo can get away with that…
it’s funny how you haven’t even noticed with all you arguing you’re circling the same 1 thing over and over
“pets are not strong/godtier” pets are not viable, pets are not competitive/patch 1.1.9 ruined them. When it’s all based of the same outlandish 1dimensional metric, - and not even wanting to spend time to actually test the patch - and you don’t see the flaw, or “unreasonable”, in either…
meh, guess i’ll hope dusk cooks up something inspiring then, good talk Maya
Sorry but I can’t agree with that. I haven’t read all the arguments but pets vs players one caught my eye.
Leveling even on ultimate don’t depend much on your luck farming gear or what skill exactly you’re using but on your grasp on game mechanics and following common sense .
Forcewave and PS are both easy even without dedicated gear. But so does vitality Ritualist, Oppressor with RE, Conjurer, Blade Arc going physical, BWC fire builds, basically every cold based DW Nightblade, acid Dervish, etc. Some knowledge will result in risk free and pleasure leveling. And player based characters have potential for faster leveling as well. Plus there are very easy to get greens. Going to Mountain Deeps will get you both your two main MI’s for my beginners Conjurer in a minute or two.
Pet leveling without pet bonus gear will be really slow experience and if you try using intrusive skills, you can draw aggro yourself. Lots of new players will make the mistake of trying to be active and dish damage themselves, which will prompt deaths, cause theirs character will not be strong enough. So pets aren’t some easy mode of the game.
the difference is pet while pet leveling “requires” bonus to all pet stat gear, it doesn’t matter as much “what” you get
-you can literally check your loot filter for “bonus to all pets”, and waltz on through leveling
this does not work with the other classes, they need resists, potentially a little DA, but also dmg, and still decent knowledge of mechanics, pets don’t, (except for skeles), and can survive mostly on their raw hp
pets is also one of the few leveling builds where lack of RR isn’t as detrimental on Ulti/felt as hard
and doing SR in greens as (phys) FW is a crap ton harder than pet conjurer
-and if we include MI etc easy to obtain gear to make the other classes obviously more smooth, the same would equally compounded apply to pet leveling