[POLL] Should dying get a bigger penalty in SR?

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
30

I cannot agree with @powbam assessment of RNG, from this angle:

Strip away CR and SR and mutators this game is entirely scripted minus the gear. It’s predecessors (such as D2) the only rng after normal was the mods to mobs. They still acted the same and the same stuff had the potential of dropping. D3 is the same. Only the GR boss and the mods on the mobs change. Sure the mobs themselves change but once you have experience with them all you know what’s going to happen. PoE mapping prior to the latest patch was the same minus the mods on the map but you blow through everything so fast you might as well not have any mobs there at all.

You can disagree but that’s my view. There is bad rng in terms of:

You have a bunch of deadly mobs who were never designed to be together. If they were In Campaign like that people would be refunding left and right. Most times, unless you describe the game as hard souls like so people know what they are getting into, they aren’t expecting walls like this

Anyways my biases are in a vacuum and all my views are easily countered by my same argument. If it changes I will take my own advice and just mod things to what I find fun. Obvious SR at some point wasn’t made with the majority of players in mind. I just have to accept this.

An idea is to add some option to click a box to add insta kick on death for more loot.

On that note: I wish I could pick my own mutators and based on choices have higher loot values. That would be fun.

Anyways I appreciate everyone’s views and still feel that 5 min CR builds are awesome cause well I will never do it.

2 Likes
31

I think this is the issue we are talking about here. You’ve built a sturdy char but you aren’t rewarded enough for it. Because a char built for dmg can take the same reward and do it faster most of the time.

32

That’s ok… but when it comes to diablo’s (and rogues) I am believer in sticking to the roots. Diablo was inspired by rogues and brought it into the “realtime” arena.

Rogues are heavily RNG-based in most all areas of the gameplay and I am a true believer in RNG with both these genres. It is the heart and soul of these types of games and always was.

1 Like
33

I don´t think this can be said for all builds. There are builds which are really fast in Crucible and can do reliably do SR 75/76 without dying too much/without greater problems (Shoot´s Warder e. g.). But I don´t think that Roman´s/Plasmodermic´s 2200 - 2400 DA builds have such an easy time there.

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34

I totally get it. Each to their own. I know where the roots are I just see rogue and rogue like different from Arpgs. That’s just a personal thing.

You’re definitely not wrong, just different views. Thanks P!

35

I had a good example recorded here:

2450 DA, -AS, -health mutators (8,5k health total), very hard chunk with pillars and ground effects, 5 deaths only in 76, still finished way ahead of time

36

And would you have made it if you hadn´t turned the camera? :wink:

As you said: If you can get everything 1:1 with little to no risk, 4 min are enough in boss shards. Now change the bosses to Garbagol, MQ or Theodin…might be a little bit riskier. But: That´s the RNG of SR. :slight_smile:

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37

Well i don’t know how to put this, because i kinda feel someone will feel “offended” over this, especially due i’ll compare it too a certain Game, but from my perspective SR face a fundamental issue.

You folks need to keep in mind, why this Mode exist, and that’s because a lot of people mourned about having not a more randomized Experience for Endgame(similiar to rifts in D3, Endless Dungeon in Torchlight or Mapworks in Torchlight 2), and need to running the same bosses / places over and over again, or doing the same Arena’s over and over again, and that’s because Maps nowdays tend to be fully handcrafted. Surely, compared to the good ol’ days the Maps of SR aren’t randomized, but atleast the order / mobspawn are. Atleast if i talk for myself, i’d wanted something like Shattered Realm to add another “layer” to the Endgame which feels more random, and with this more fresh.

The only Issue which i see, though i’d argue they level of how huge / low the issue is pretty personal and arguable, but i’d say that even for this kind of stuff, there a different type of Gamers. Rifts worked out so well, because they offered two different kinds. One which is more for the laidback people(like me) which want to take their time, explore the maps, kill monster and loot them. (Rifts) and a more challenging and core-oriented Mode, where you need to rush through etc with the G-Rifts. And i get the feeling if it comes down to Shattered Realms, i don’t know if it intentionally or not, crate / big z tried to please both sides in one Mode. And that’s why it’s one hand challenging, have even after a certain shard the challenging-core-idea where you not even get any loot anymore, and set a bit of a (fast) pace so people do something for their loot, but at the other hand don’t overdo it, don’t punish the Peoples too much, so it’s not another mere “crucible”, but a more consistent experience in sense of how smooth you can progress. Timer seems fair enough, but if you take to long, well your bad, but the rewards(from what i’ve seen so far) not too much to feel left out if you don’t make it a time. And if you think about it, that not every build is top-notch for the common player, and not this diehard builders and such like the folks in here, if you as a average player stuck at a boss-shard, you are already punished enough because you won’t get any loot as well and need to start over. And that’s the thing.

Crate have in my Eyes done an Amazing Job with SR(even though i haven’t yet spent that much time in it,)even if it isn’t exactly what i atleast hoped for, however they can’t please everyone, and if they give bigger penality’s it will piss off another crowed, if they change the pace of it, it might hurt another part of people who play the Mode. There is no real Solution, because different people have different desires / wishes and that’s why it’s hard to please everyone, even more if you have to fit everything into one mode and don’t forget, it’s not like SR is they only way to go. You can do alot of stuff in GD and that’s why it bothers me, when people complain(not saying the OP did it in this topic) about the RNG aspect of it, because from my perspective, for everyone which don’t like the RNG, you have a huge set of other things you can do. One Major another thing is Crucible, doing farming Routes in the Campaign. Nemesis and (Super/Secret)Bosses, Roguelike Dungeons…

3 Likes
38

I don’t play often in SR but you can make builds that stomp on both Crucible and SR. Vitality casters or Mage Hunters for example can do it. My Blightlord Oppressor did SR 83(I can’t beat Grava due my lack of skills) and can reach even deeper and at same time do 5:10 in Crucible + naked runs. SR set Infiltrator is good in both. Same thing applies to Invoker Mage Hunter and many more builds. If you make proper Crucible build, which doesn’t have inherent glassines you’ll beat with little or no deaths SR 75 or at least 65. I don’t like to see builds being discredited .

At same time aggro 1vs1 is the recommended way to play boss chunks. Especially true if you don’t have DoT damage and kiting possibilities.

39

Oh, I don´t discredit any build. I just say: Dying 6 times in SR 75 and always making the timer is not standard.

And about what are we talking here right now?
@banana_peel said, that the problem is that glassy builds with high dps still can get the same loot as sturdy builds designed for SR even when dying a lot (so, my interpretation, dying should be penalized more).
@ya1 wants a loot penalty when dying 2 times. For him, SR 75 is laughing matter. Who is discrediting anything right now? :wink:

40

I wasn’t referring you specifically as discrediting reference. But look 100 people, 100 different opinions. We try to reach some from of consensus. Dying 6 times and not losing the timer is pretty ridiculous, I will admit. But if I start dying a lot, will simply give up on the current iteration of my build, not good enough. Still there are only few builds that can afford to die 6 times and still get the loot.

41

Yeah. And I don´t understand the talk about “loot”. It´s a little bit…strange (to say the least :joy:).

Let´s face it (and this in no way an accusation): A lot of the builds presented here are made via GDStash. Loot (except perhaps Blueprints for collectors) isn´t important for a lot of people anymore.

So who should be penalized here? The people who level their builds and play self-found/trade for items?
I think someone made a proposal a while ago to give maximum loot at 150 and 150 to 170 is just for the “sports”. Would anyone really care if this change would be made?

3 Likes
42

I agree with you. We use GD stash and don’t care about loot. Imagine playing one of these builds SF, makes big difference if you’re getting full or reduced loot. And Crucible playing full glass builds. If I do 1 out of 10, I can present my build ( I am totally against that) as 5 minutes monster farmer ir beat with camera abuse SR 75 once in a blue moon and label it SR 75 capable. But if you care about loot you can’t afford to die in Crucible or loose timer. So penalized them further in SR or increasing Crucible difficultly will generally affect them more than you and me.

That’s why I am against the proposed changes, not that I disrespect people that support it, they have their reasonable arguments.

3 Likes
43

Honestly…when did we see a build posted here the last time that is tagged as Crucible Farmer or SR 75/76 Farmer and in reality had only one lucky shot?

Sure, some people like me just post a screenshot and nobody can proof it. But why should anyone lie about it?

44

No from me for some reasons.
Firstly, I agree with @Nery. We, builders, almost always use GD-stashed builds and can afford ourselves to craft everything we want and in whatever number we want.
But imagine a SF player that is going throw SR and is stopped with hard boss room. He dies a lot but finally completes it, decides to get reward and what he gets? 2 chests missing because of broken timer and some more chests because of deaths? This is not satisfying moment of getting rewarded, it’s like game’s spitting in your face for being too weak or too unlucky.
Secondly, SR and Cruci are different game mods. And one of their differences is that in SR you can afford yourself dying. So it should be left as it is.

10 Likes
45

Imo the timer should at least insta drop to 0 when you die, not letting you get the extra chest. But then again I don’t play SC so idc about this topic at all and you can just ignore this message.

Why do you even craft when you just GD stash anything anyway? :rofl:

46

Crafting items with GD stash = thug’s life :sunglasses:

Btw you, the hardcore players do get penalty from dying in SR but that’s not one chest less :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

1 Like
47

One of the reasons for this is that the Build Compendium tags suggest that SR should be about survival. Since SR is too RNG to be timed, only the clear matters. Unlike c+ for which you gotta time.

Now, ANY BUILD IS SR+. If an endgame build is unable to clear 75 at all, it means it’s badly done. Crucible tags make a little more sense because some builds are physically unable to do sub 6. And the reason why even the most memetic build is SR+ is because you can die and get back to it like nothing happened. The only difficulty in SR is occasional RNG freak-outs. Even action game shooters are more restrictive because at least the game pulls you back to last save point and enemies usually respawn.

Survival is pretty much an antonym to dying. Without enough challenge, SR is little more than a hiking simulator.

Some people say what about non-endgame builds? That’s not hard to figure out once you realize there are 74 numbers before 75. The very fact that people claim the right to do the ultimate farming challenge with crap non-endgame builds shows how spoiled SR audience is!

1 Like
48

As I explained earlier, the game “spitting in your face with RNG” is a separate topic. And extra lives rarely save you from that spit.

This argument is a huge logical fallacy. Things are as they are so they should be left as they are? Before SR there was no SR so it should have been left as it was? SR shouldn’t have been made?

49

SR is main campaign content. The main campaign doesn’t punish players for death (besides XP loss and roguelike dungeons). It seems like most players don’t want this to be the case either, according to your poll which has marvelously backfired.

You already have a game mode which behaves exactly as you envision. Why would you want SR to be more like crucible when being unlike crucible is one of the main selling points of SR?

4 Likes