[POLL] Should dying get a bigger penalty in SR?

That’s a good point. Bad RNG has been called out many times but both Crate and a large part of the community seems to be ok with it.

And this bad RNG makes one feel like bigger on-death penalty is not a good idea. However…

…difficulty spikes are usually so severe that many deaths allowed don’t really help much. Bumrushed by all 4 or insta-death-locked by maggots or that storm priest, you die a lot anyway. Bigger on death penalty would not really make this aspect of the game more terrible. It’s already as terrible as it gets.

On the other hand, the usual SR experience is way too easy. When you die in SR you either die out of carelessness - once or twice - or due to bad RNG - and then you die many times anyway and often can’t even finish the run. I just want SR to punish more for the former.

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There is no bad RNG. Nor good RNG. There is only RNG.

giphy%20(9)

I play rogue-likes and diablo-likes for the RNG. Removing RNG or making “less” RNG in games of these types is the same as removing the rogue or the diablo from the game.

Respect the RNG. It is the premise and foundation of the entire sub-genre. It is the core.

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I mean I get that many people like the thrill of not knowing whether it’s gonna be the usual walk in the park after crossing that rift or is it gonna be impossible this time. I’d rather have it reasonably difficult most of the time and sometimes very difficult but never spiking to near-impossibility all of a sudden.

To each his own, I guess.

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The only way to combat such “near-impossible” scenarios is if you are recording such instances or meticulously documenting/observing such encounters in detail so that Crate can take a closer look and rectify it. There are a lot of factors involved ranging from the mobs themselves, WYSIWYG, and your own build.

The best way, by far, is if you can give them enough detail where they can replicate the scenario on their end as close as possible and dissect the issue, if any.

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Actually i agree on that. Here is the thing. I play basically only Crucible and i like to create more risky builds in general. They require careful piloting to be able to finish 151-170 more or less reliably.

And then i test the build in SR and literally every time it is able to finish 75-76, and mostly within timer. Speaking of softcore now, isn’t there smth wrong with it? Z himself considers 151-170 to be equivalent to SR 65-66. But in reality even 75-76 for most Crucible builds is not only easy, it’s profitable.

Smth should be revised considering softcore. For example, make the timer bigger and bonuses from killing also bigger but make death penalties much more harsh. And increase the loot for finishing in time. This way a person who takes it slow are carefully, without dying, will receive more loot than someone who rushed through with a dps cookie cutter. Sounds fair?

You can die more than 6 times and finish in time if your dps is high enough, the penalty is low.

That’s a good advice but Zantai said that he’s not all too interested in SR65+ balance, hinting that a player should expect extreme situations when going that “far.”

And this has been mentioned a million times to no avail so I reckoned that these kinda situations are not really seen by Crate as needing rectifying. Plus many people were saying that they actually like it. So I don’t thing anything is gonna change in that regard. I was just hoping that difficulty could be balanced at least for the average SR experience (I mean mostly successful aggro abuse) which is imo too easy.

I don´t think this can be said for every time this happens, especially not in SR 75/76. Sure, when you get very good non-boss shards where you e. g. can AoE a lot of weak enemies and so get a lot of time it´s easy. But that is not always the case and especially not for builds which are not optimized for DPS.

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This is just my experience. I test the majority of my cruci builds. They aren’t built for SR, they don’t even have sufficient res for it, so i die a lot. But usually finish in time. They give you too many seconds for killing trash. So you can just skip hard hero packs. Basically the only time i fail timer is when there is some very hard boss combo which can’t be aggro abused.

edit: also i play melee exclusively so i rarely have any AoE to abuse trash

Okay, different experiences here. :smiley:

My Bleeding Builds are sturdy and can survive very well most of the time, but don´t have really high DPS and/or AoE so timer could be an issue when dying too much.

I cannot agree with @powbam assessment of RNG, from this angle:

Strip away CR and SR and mutators this game is entirely scripted minus the gear. It’s predecessors (such as D2) the only rng after normal was the mods to mobs. They still acted the same and the same stuff had the potential of dropping. D3 is the same. Only the GR boss and the mods on the mobs change. Sure the mobs themselves change but once you have experience with them all you know what’s going to happen. PoE mapping prior to the latest patch was the same minus the mods on the map but you blow through everything so fast you might as well not have any mobs there at all.

You can disagree but that’s my view. There is bad rng in terms of:

You have a bunch of deadly mobs who were never designed to be together. If they were In Campaign like that people would be refunding left and right. Most times, unless you describe the game as hard souls like so people know what they are getting into, they aren’t expecting walls like this

Anyways my biases are in a vacuum and all my views are easily countered by my same argument. If it changes I will take my own advice and just mod things to what I find fun. Obvious SR at some point wasn’t made with the majority of players in mind. I just have to accept this.

An idea is to add some option to click a box to add insta kick on death for more loot.

On that note: I wish I could pick my own mutators and based on choices have higher loot values. That would be fun.

Anyways I appreciate everyone’s views and still feel that 5 min CR builds are awesome cause well I will never do it.

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I think this is the issue we are talking about here. You’ve built a sturdy char but you aren’t rewarded enough for it. Because a char built for dmg can take the same reward and do it faster most of the time.

That’s ok… but when it comes to diablo’s (and rogues) I am believer in sticking to the roots. Diablo was inspired by rogues and brought it into the “realtime” arena.

Rogues are heavily RNG-based in most all areas of the gameplay and I am a true believer in RNG with both these genres. It is the heart and soul of these types of games and always was.

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I don´t think this can be said for all builds. There are builds which are really fast in Crucible and can do reliably do SR 75/76 without dying too much/without greater problems (Shoot´s Warder e. g.). But I don´t think that Roman´s/Plasmodermic´s 2200 - 2400 DA builds have such an easy time there.

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I totally get it. Each to their own. I know where the roots are I just see rogue and rogue like different from Arpgs. That’s just a personal thing.

You’re definitely not wrong, just different views. Thanks P!

I had a good example recorded here:

2450 DA, -AS, -health mutators (8,5k health total), very hard chunk with pillars and ground effects, 5 deaths only in 76, still finished way ahead of time

And would you have made it if you hadn´t turned the camera? :wink:

As you said: If you can get everything 1:1 with little to no risk, 4 min are enough in boss shards. Now change the bosses to Garbagol, MQ or Theodin…might be a little bit riskier. But: That´s the RNG of SR. :slight_smile:

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Well i don’t know how to put this, because i kinda feel someone will feel “offended” over this, especially due i’ll compare it too a certain Game, but from my perspective SR face a fundamental issue.

You folks need to keep in mind, why this Mode exist, and that’s because a lot of people mourned about having not a more randomized Experience for Endgame(similiar to rifts in D3, Endless Dungeon in Torchlight or Mapworks in Torchlight 2), and need to running the same bosses / places over and over again, or doing the same Arena’s over and over again, and that’s because Maps nowdays tend to be fully handcrafted. Surely, compared to the good ol’ days the Maps of SR aren’t randomized, but atleast the order / mobspawn are. Atleast if i talk for myself, i’d wanted something like Shattered Realm to add another “layer” to the Endgame which feels more random, and with this more fresh.

The only Issue which i see, though i’d argue they level of how huge / low the issue is pretty personal and arguable, but i’d say that even for this kind of stuff, there a different type of Gamers. Rifts worked out so well, because they offered two different kinds. One which is more for the laidback people(like me) which want to take their time, explore the maps, kill monster and loot them. (Rifts) and a more challenging and core-oriented Mode, where you need to rush through etc with the G-Rifts. And i get the feeling if it comes down to Shattered Realms, i don’t know if it intentionally or not, crate / big z tried to please both sides in one Mode. And that’s why it’s one hand challenging, have even after a certain shard the challenging-core-idea where you not even get any loot anymore, and set a bit of a (fast) pace so people do something for their loot, but at the other hand don’t overdo it, don’t punish the Peoples too much, so it’s not another mere “crucible”, but a more consistent experience in sense of how smooth you can progress. Timer seems fair enough, but if you take to long, well your bad, but the rewards(from what i’ve seen so far) not too much to feel left out if you don’t make it a time. And if you think about it, that not every build is top-notch for the common player, and not this diehard builders and such like the folks in here, if you as a average player stuck at a boss-shard, you are already punished enough because you won’t get any loot as well and need to start over. And that’s the thing.

Crate have in my Eyes done an Amazing Job with SR(even though i haven’t yet spent that much time in it,)even if it isn’t exactly what i atleast hoped for, however they can’t please everyone, and if they give bigger penality’s it will piss off another crowed, if they change the pace of it, it might hurt another part of people who play the Mode. There is no real Solution, because different people have different desires / wishes and that’s why it’s hard to please everyone, even more if you have to fit everything into one mode and don’t forget, it’s not like SR is they only way to go. You can do alot of stuff in GD and that’s why it bothers me, when people complain(not saying the OP did it in this topic) about the RNG aspect of it, because from my perspective, for everyone which don’t like the RNG, you have a huge set of other things you can do. One Major another thing is Crucible, doing farming Routes in the Campaign. Nemesis and (Super/Secret)Bosses, Roguelike Dungeons…

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I don’t play often in SR but you can make builds that stomp on both Crucible and SR. Vitality casters or Mage Hunters for example can do it. My Blightlord Oppressor did SR 83(I can’t beat Grava due my lack of skills) and can reach even deeper and at same time do 5:10 in Crucible + naked runs. SR set Infiltrator is good in both. Same thing applies to Invoker Mage Hunter and many more builds. If you make proper Crucible build, which doesn’t have inherent glassines you’ll beat with little or no deaths SR 75 or at least 65. I don’t like to see builds being discredited .

At same time aggro 1vs1 is the recommended way to play boss chunks. Especially true if you don’t have DoT damage and kiting possibilities.

Oh, I don´t discredit any build. I just say: Dying 6 times in SR 75 and always making the timer is not standard.

And about what are we talking here right now?
@banana_peel said, that the problem is that glassy builds with high dps still can get the same loot as sturdy builds designed for SR even when dying a lot (so, my interpretation, dying should be penalized more).
@ya1 wants a loot penalty when dying 2 times. For him, SR 75 is laughing matter. Who is discrediting anything right now? :wink:

I wasn’t referring you specifically as discrediting reference. But look 100 people, 100 different opinions. We try to reach some from of consensus. Dying 6 times and not losing the timer is pretty ridiculous, I will admit. But if I start dying a lot, will simply give up on the current iteration of my build, not good enough. Still there are only few builds that can afford to die 6 times and still get the loot.