SPOILER ALERT: Lore Discussion

[mamba]

In case people didn’t notice the quest “Now You Owe Me” each first letter from every word you can spell “money”

Never noticed that, as I am not looking for these kinds of hidden messages - oh, and also because you cannot actually spell money, you end up with mony… so a secret message to the song ‘Mony Mony’ ?

I guess that is the problem with these vague maybe (but probably not) messages

[medea_fleecestealer]

Y’all might find some interesting info in this post by Medierra in another thread today.

Malazan Influences on Grim Dawn

Funny thing, when I was working at Iron Lore on the Black Legion concept, a new designer we hired, asked if I’d ever read Glen Cook’s Black Company, which I hadn’t and suggested I check it out, since he said there were a lot of parallels (not least the name) with the backstory I was working on. So I ended up reading through the Black Company series and then sometime after, I found out about Steven Erikson, which is sort of a ripoff of Black Company and did read a bunch of his books, which in some ways are better written than Cook’s… but they’re so long and convoluted I kind of got burnt out at some point. I forget where I stopped.

Really though, I think a lot of similar in fantasy is due to the fact that we’re all ripping off the originals - history / ancient mythology and the reason for that is that it was forged out of the human experience and contains age-old motifs that resonate with us and are broadly relatable. That and they just were there first to lay claim to a lot of the cliché cool ideas we continue to recycle. I majored in ancient history and, like I me, I can tell Erikson really digs ancient history and myth and was heavily influenced by it. Notably the feel of it, where stuff is often a lot more gritty and messy than tolkien style fantasy, what with all the child eating, patricide, eagles feasting on livers and such.

A lot of the stuff in the original comparison came before I read Malazan, so it’s definitely not influenced by it. Other stuff, I honestly couldn’t say, sometimes you don’t directly borrow an idea but maybe you were subconsciously influenced by it? Other stuff mentioned above, Zantai came up with and he didn’t Steven Erikson or Glen Cook.

I don’t really remember where a lot of ideas came from if anywhere, but Ch’thon and all the undesirable early creations cast into the void is a total ripoff of Cronus and the titans of Greek myth, which is probably what inspired Erikson. I’ve actually not read the myth of Kingu somehow, so also a coincidence. I just was trying to come up with my own creation myth and there is more creation backstory that isn’t conveyed in GD (I feel like to create depth, sometimes you need to have supporting story and events that you never explicitly reveal but which provide coherent foundation for the story you do tell). Basically though, the origin of the gods has to do with the joining of matter, energy and spirit, and so to create life and sentience, those elements had to come from somewhere. Part of the fucked up truth of Cairn is the humanity was created from the sacrificing of Ch’thon and so part of his madness lives in all people.

Chaos - I mean, that’s in like every mythos and fantasy world. I think we only really added chaos because we needed another damage type, which originally was only meant for enemies. Not like it was a very original idea.

Mogdrogen - I think I finally got around to watching Princess Mononoke at the end of Iron Lore, because someone had a poster or something of it in their cubical and I thought “a giant wolf god would be cool”. Then came up with the titan backstory and eventually decided it should be able to change into a human form because it would be weird every trying to allow the player to talk to a screen-sized wolf.

Menhir - I kind of feel like I shouldn’t reveal some of this stuff because I’m showing too much of how the sausage is made, so to speak and maybe taking some magic out of it. However, Menhir came about because I was working on soldier and decided some skills should refer to dieties or people to add flavor and a feeling of depth. So I thought - defensive skills could be related to some earth god cuz like mountains are tough lol… So I vaguely remembered there was some word for ancient stone monoliths that was cool and looked it up - bam, Menhir. At that point, there was no backstory, existed purely to provide a cool context for skills. Honestly, a lot of GD lore came about like this - it started kind of shallow, as just some name / vague concept, then later we ended up filling a lot of it in with lore as the need arose. The cleaving mountains with mythical weapons thing was from Zantai - this is actually my first time reading it… sounds a little far fetched for my taste

Oleron was actually a story I came up with working on the Black Legion concept, so it predates my having read Erikson. I then decided to recycle it for soldier mastery because I like the name / figured the story fit pretty well.

Autumn Boar - we needed a few more constellation and I don’t remember who came up with them but I think we just tossed a bunch of different animals out there and Zantai wrote up the backstories.

It’s funny because there’s a number of deities in the constellations that exist purely to provide constellations to put points into - but some of them we’re now taking to expanding on for lore / backstory in the RTS.

John Bourbon - I honestly have no idea here… I think I was just trying to come up with a name that sounded cool and grizzled?

Aetherials are basically pissed off angels. Hey, not that I say it like that, maybe it was influenced by Supernatural? I have no idea at this point.

You missed probably the biggest influence though - Demolitionists. They aren’t called that in the books and I forget the details now, its been so long but I remember they had soldiers who were basically explosives experts. This goes back to Glen Cook though and Erikson borrowed from him.

Ultimately, virtually nothing emerges from the void as a totally original idea and, consuming so much sci-fi and fantasy content, it’s hard to even know sometimes where ideas may have come from sometimes. When I try to think up important char names, I look them up on the internet to make sure I’m not accidentally subconsciously stealing some name I heard somewhere else. A lot of people also tend to have convergent ideas, just based on the influences of the time - I mean, look how often I somehow happen to embark upon a project in a previously under-served genre and bam, suddenly everyone and their mom has had the same idea and is announcing new games in that genre…

[Mauricius]

Thanks for posting love the backstory of it.

[klasperstanze]

Part of the fucked up truth of Cairn is the humanity was created from the sacrificing of Ch’thon and so part of his madness lives in all people.

I always thought Ch’thon grew mad after centuries in the void? Way after his blood was spilled.
Makes me wonder what kind of a nice-guy-good he might have been before.

[kukuhimanpr]

the part where ch’thon grew mad due to being shattered and banished to the void by empyrion’s group is still true. perhaps he still had links to all his drop of bloods residing in all mortals of cairn which makes humans too chaotic to control by the celestials.

that also means ch’thon’s blood is also flowing in the 3 witch gods’s bodies, but who knows whether they shed ch’thon’s blood when they ascended, or they use it to their advantage. mogdrogen might be right when he considers the 3 to be capricious in their behaviour.

kinda makes me more curious about how ch’thon ruled the grimverse before the celestials betrayed him. though based on what medierra said about cronus titan myth its probably quite close to how zeus and his brothers overthrowing cronus’ reign of tyranny.

i think we grim dawners need more exposure to ‘kind’ celestials. also more lore about the female celestials. they seem to be overall kind in nature (aside from bysmiel and the berserker), just my assumption. mogdroggen might be considered among the ‘kind’ celestials, but he’s too indifferent and emo. the 3 are openly deceitful and arrogant. korvaak is wrathful and deceitful. are all the ‘kind’ celestials died already?

[Chthon]

So I am a bit OoTL, when he says “we’re now taking to expanding on for lore / backstory in the RTS.” does he mean Farthest Frontier or some other unannounced project?

EDIT:
Never mind, found it - Crate's Grim Dawn Related RTS Project

I always thought Ch’thon grew mad after centuries in the void? Way after his blood was spilled.
Makes me wonder what kind of a nice-guy-good he might have been before.

My post history can shed some light.

[medea_fleecestealer]

Yes, he’s been quite chatty about the RTS project. We got more out of him about that than we have in all the years about FF.

[Chthon]

The way they’ve been operating, it wouldn’t surprise me if they reveal the RTS early next year and release it by Christmas.

I say this because it looks to me that work has been progressing on all products in the background while GD expansions\major patches were in the limelight. Which is pretty impressive tbh.

[medea_fleecestealer]

Well, the job adverts on their website say it’s in early development.

[el_chanis]

are all the ‘kind’ celestials died already?

Hardly. Menhir still has his temple, even if his priest betrayed him and the place desecrated, still is in way too good conditions to be considered abandoned or forgotten. The temple is massive compared to any other building in the game (only some of the biggest Malmouth buildings can compare in size), and it isn’t super hidden or anything. The soldiers and oathkeepers revere him, and there are plenty of items infused by his magic, so… asuming Menhir is a celestial, he is almost certainly a good guy, and still kicking (altho probably not in activity). If Korvaak coulded return disguised, after a genocidal campain to erase him, a god so openly supported is surely feeding of his followers.

[el_chanis]

the 3 seems to be trying their best to stave off yugol’s arrival as long as possible. just take a look on how they scour the korvan lands for all leftover artifacts/powers from korvaak’s empire like thieving archeologist.

yugol isn’t coming, apparently. He is only whats left after all gods are gone. The shattered realms are the remains of erased and consumed dimensions where gods died or left. Aparently, Korvaak was fighting in one of those realms when he returned injured to be betrayed by the 3, and his absence caused some of the realms’s conditions. Zantai once said Yugol has no intentions or will, he just consumes, but is kept at bay by the light of the stars, wich, as we know, are the manifestation of divine power in the cosmos. In other words, as long as there are gods, there is no Yugol…But, if the gods start killing each other…
What reamins to be seen, is what started the war. I can only imagine one or more gods tried to return chthon, and that side started to use void powers.

[kukuhimanpr]

Hardly. Menhir still has his temple, even if his priest betrayed him and the place desecrated, still is in way too good conditions to be considered abandoned or forgotten. The temple is massive compared to any other building in the game (only some of the biggest Malmouth buildings can compare in size), and it isn’t super hidden or anything. The soldiers and oathkeepers revere him, and there are plenty of items infused by his magic, so… asuming Menhir is a celestial, he is almost certainly a good guy, and still kicking (altho probably not in activity). If Korvaak coulded return disguised, after a genocidal campain to erase him, a god so openly supported is surely feeding of his followers.

Menhir seems to be more of a manifestation of cairn realm’s unyielding will to survive and protect its denizens rather than a celestial imo. maybe gd2 will reveal more about menhir’s nature. but its no doubt that menhir is one of the good celestial figures.

yugol isn’t coming, apparently. He is only whats left after all gods are gone. The shattered realms are the remains of erased and consumed dimensions where gods died or left. Aparently, Korvaak was fighting in one of those realms when he returned injured to be betrayed by the 3, and his absence caused some of the realms’s conditions. Zantai once said Yugol has no intentions or will, he just consumes, but is kept at bay by the light of the stars, wich, as we know, are the manifestation of divine power in the cosmos. In other words, as long as there are gods, there is no Yugol…But, if the gods start killing each other…
What reamins to be seen, is what started the war. I can only imagine one or more gods tried to return chthon, and that side started to use void powers.

hmm, that could be true. i mean the shattered realm’s forgotten god left the realm because of the arrogance of the mortals there, and then yugol appears to consume it almost completely.
still, we don’t know what morgoneth’s beacon of the night really does if yugol is a thing that only appears when the celestials left their realms altogether. though yugol will definitely consume cairn if all the celestials and ascendants in cairn goes bonkers completely and destroy/banish each other. korvaak being banished definitely strengthen yugol’s presence, though the 3, mogdrogen and several other unknown celestials will most likely try to fill korvaak’s portion in the struggle against yugol. not to mention c’hthon will definitely have something to say about it.
i guess at least cairn won’t be in danger of being eaten by yugol completely due to absence of beliefs in celestials/ascendants.

[el_chanis]

Given his devotion, he does seems to be a celestial, and a big one, like empyreon. Menhir is pure primordial and order, so my guess is, big guy in the pantheon

I think the cosmology started with yugol and chthon, chilling out in the nothingness. Chthon made up some gods because why not, and Empyreon created light, wich pushed away Yugol. Gods started to create in there, aetherials, and general stuff that, for some reason, needed Chthon blood to function.
At some point, one or more gods felt like shit was better before, so tried to call the big daddy, shit hit the fan, Mogdrogen, Ulzaad, Ulzuin are created, everything burns somewhere, but Cairn dodges the bullet (thanks Menhir), and gods go into hidding (or prision, in Korvaak’s case… and aetherials). In the process, the gods that tried to call Chthon back, teached the mortals the work around, and voila, cultist. Sorcerers found the aetherhold, and bam, Grim Dawn.

I suspect the beacon of the night creates a godless space, if i recall correctly, the notes stated that the priest of Korvaak couldn’t see beyond his veil, and some of them shoulded have a vision similar to Dreeg, fueled by Korvaak’s blessing, so being unable to see in there would mean some sort of barrier or banishment of gods’s influences. In the notes is described as window or portal into the nothingness, a wound in reality, so i guess Yugol would feel it like free real state and stretch his many legs over there (wich is what we see in the dungeon). I, however, despite what Zantai says, still fail to see the diference between yugol eating everything, and Chthon eating everyone. Morgoneth saying “we will be one with the nothingness” sound awfully similar to the cultist saying “we will be one with Chthon”. And yes, i know constellations are basicly are there for balance reasons and bit of exposure, but Yugol having a constellation is PARTICULARLY ironic.

[Foehammer]

Anyone else notice a few LoTR similarities in the names? Ungoliax TheGloomweaver = Ungoliant. Gollus the Deepdweller = Gollum. Angrim = Angrim. Just thought it was cool that some of the devs are Tolkien fans, or are at least familiar with his work.

[klasperstanze]

It’s obvious. Morgoneth… XD. Who’s Angrim in LOTR again?

[Foehammer]

Morgoneth…ah yes. I knew that there was an obvious one I forgot. Angrim is basically some random guy in the Silmarillion/Children of Hurin. Not an important character but I remembered the name.

Angrim

[Kool]

I just completed the game, and want to ask something about lore.

First, do Witch Gods actually exists as actual Gods? There are no one in Temple of the Three and the guardian tells that he cannot hear them. Then they are missing when cults are united to fight Korvaak, and leaders answering with some nonsense when you’re asking why Gods not leading the assault themselves. When you enter Throne of the Three, there are actually three empty thrones and Korvaak, and when you kill Korvaak, there are no one to talk with you, the thrones are still empty.

Lore notes seems to imply that Solael and Bysmiel were just human mages back in the time, and Dreeg isn’t even mentioned outside of final Korvaak’s note (and he’s his eldritch servant, not a human). So it seems that real “Witch Gods” are long dead (since they were just humans) and their names being used by occultists as symbols?

Anyway, also most of Gods are kinda evil? There are only three benevolent ones:

1 - Dreeg, which is strange, because he is eldritch multi-eyed monster created by Korvaak, but for some reason he sided with humanity, and decided to kill his own masters because otherwise humans would be dead. Not sure is he’s still alive, because cultsists in Temple were unable to hear him.

2 - Ravager, seems to care about people from Barrowholm, and protected it from cannibals.

3 - Mogdrogen, seems to care about some humans.

And which is weird, but those three dislike each other (Mogdrogen hates Ravager), when their goals align.

[klasperstanze]

The 3 leaders ARE the 3 witch gods. That’s my conclusion and I think it’s a pretty solid one.
The thrones are empty because, I think, they wanted to leave the battlefield before Korvaak gets unchained. I assume the will cowardly crawl back there, some time after you didi the dirty work for them.

[kukuhimanpr]

klasperstanze had concluded the closest truth we players know about the 3’s identities (dreeg is draellus. bysmiel is byscilla. solael is sagon). and the 3 witch gods can also possess one of their cultists for their own agendas (even the occultist’s solael aligned skill ‘possession’ support this).

as for the evil nature of most gods in grim dawn… i suspect its just the direction that crate wants to go (grimdark world). though some of them can be benevolent to lesser beings from time to time.

1. dreeg is a high ranked human priest of some pantheon in korvan age. he got too close in unravelling the secret of the eldritch realm, and saw korvaak being weakened by the war of the gods. korvaak punished him to become his eldritch overseer that guards the eldritch realm from intruder. but he also bless dreeg with almost omnipotent seersights. dreeg, terrified of what korvaak plans to do with humanities for endless war against the chthonians, hatch secret plan with foreign sorcerer solael and priestess bysmiel to steal korvaak’s throne and ascend themselves to become 3 witch gods that leads humanities from the shadows for the survival of humankind (and +benefits to the 3)

2.ravager bless the cannibals of of barrowholm to protect them from ugdenbog’s dangers. but he is also the one that spreads the wendigo cannibal curse. not a benevolent being he is. he just want more cultists to get more power to strike back at mogdrogen for stealing his beastly domain while also preparing for war against the chthonians.

3.mogdrogen is more benevolent than many supreme beings of grim dawn. he wants ascetic and disarmed cultists to support his preference of wilderness over civilizations. but he also seems to be warlike if he needs to be (since he steals ravager’s domain in the past), which is the path he seems to consider in future grim dawn events post AoM, FG, & morgoneth’s beacon of the night. he considers the 3 witch gods to be capricious. and based on conversation with his avatar in ugdenbog, he seems to be preparing his followers for war after the banishment of korvaak and return of the 3 witch gods. he’s a decent supreme being imo.

[Kool]

Is there confirmation that leaders are Gods? Draellus (I helped him) isn’t like Dreeg at all, he’s just human. And he seems to be concerned about Lightless thing in the void, while Gods would have no problem with it (because Gods can just repel it, it only devours a world without Gods). And if he’s Dreeg and actual God, why didn’t he participate in final fight with Korvaak?

Ravager is the source of curse? And people on Barrowholm are cannibals? The village looks really nice.