SPOILER ALERT: Lore Discussion

Grim Dawn General Discussion
1902

I was going to make a topic about finding lore notes, but I see this thread exists.

I was just thinking about that warm fuzzy feeling I get whenever I smack a book case and a lore note falls out. I’ve always loved that about this game. Normally I wouldn’t give two shits about lore in a video game, but there’s something about GD lore notes that makes me keep reading them, and stitching the stories together.

For example, I accidentally destroyed a bookcase in Burrwitch Estates with a cocktail and a note that said ‘Warning Groble Attacks on the Rise’ popped out. I don’t think I’ve ever read that one. It’s just a really cool way to feel immersed in the world of Cairn. I didn’t know Grobles were such sneaky thieves, and were apparently not so violent at one point in time. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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1903

lore notes can also drop from breakable items other than bookcase in certain locations. i’ve found some lore notes from some ancient urns in some forgotten gods areas that i’ve forgot the name of.

i think grobles are just nuisance to the erulan empire long ago. but they’ve become bold once dranghoul beastmen starts leading them into attacking some borderlands of erulan empire. there are too few lores about the grobles and dranghouls, so i personally just consider them normal tribal beastmen that sometimes get in your way but not worth putting much concern. grobles do inhabit a lot of areas though. with strong connections to the elements (sky groble, snake groble, earth groble, death groble, etc).

1904

So now that I am helping the Dreeg Cult, and after defeating Ishtak the Mind Reaper (though given what it did, should have been called the Mind Raper)… Man, the Seers of Dreeg are suddenly making more sense.
Turns out all the violent visions of Korvan City burning and everyone dying a fiery death again was all from Ishtak. He set out in a pocket of the Eldritch Realm and sent false visions to torment the Witch God followers. Even the other 2 cult’s members could feel them as feelings of unease. After you kill Ishtak, even Nailene, who just ranted about death before, is calm and (more) collected.
Also, seems Ishtak did not just die, same as the Messenger he just fled in an incorporeal form, and possessed a Seer, that’s why we get a hex-stone and a quest to track them both down.
Ah and the Witch boss in the Tomb of Horran was also one of the Seers driven mad by Ishtak - you get a quest to kill her since she fled. Later we learn it was really not her fault… I am guessing with Korvaak awakening, he could co-opt some of Dreeg’s prophecy powers.
Oh and Draellus really almost stumbles and says something like “Umm, I have other tasks. I mean Dreeg has given me other tasks! We are totally not the same, honest!” when you ask him why he is not helping in the battle. :smiley:

1905

we should not forget that it is KORVAAK in the 1st place who give dreeg the prophetic powers before the trio witch usurpers allied together. of course Korvaak still has some of that power to be given to worthy followers.

about draellus stumbling when denying his real identity, i noticed byscilla also do that at one point when asked about what bysmiel’s doing. she said " The… schemer", that triple dot (…) hesitation is very noticeable since she usually speaks fluently and confidently.

that reminds me, in one of the lore note in conclave of the 3, the one that is written by a promising dreeg cultist who dreams about yugol, she describe something ominous from draellus’ (i mean dreeg) expression:

"#Visions of Terror:
This place we have chosen for our vigil, this Conclave, it is a cursed land! The veil screams in agony. The whispers from beyond threaten to unravel reality.

Every night I’ve spent here, the visions of the other side came more frequently, and with greater clarity. What I first thought were images of darkness turned out to be much more. Within it were the screams of a million souls, crying out to me. Crying out for mercy. As my dreams solidified, I realized that the darkness moved. It writhed like a mass of tentacles endlessly searching for something. The sight of it filled me with terror beyond anything I’ve ever felt. I awoke gasping for breath and grasping for anything within reach that would remind me that I’ve left the dream, to the chagrin of my fellow seers sharing the tent.

Shaken and unable to sleep, I sought the wisdom of the Oracle. To my surprise, or perhaps I should have expected this, my master was already waiting for me inside his tent. Lanterns illuminated him in their flickering light as he sat cross-legged, without his usual regalia, on a rug with tea set out for us. As he stared ahead with his blank eyes, he gave me a tight-lipped smile and motioned for me to sit.

Before I could utter a word, he said: Yugol. I was taken aback and blinked. The Oracle continued by describing exactly what I had seen in my dreams, as if he had been there to share them with me. The Insatiable Night, he called it, the eternal darkness that exists in the beyond. It is primordial, unfathomable to the human mind. We see it as a mass of writhing tentacles, but what it truly is cannot be described in words. Yugol exists to consume everything, its endless pursuit halted only by the light of the celestial stars.

I was told that it is a gift and a burden to bear witness to the makings of reality. What I had seen cannot be unseen. When I started visibly shaking, the Oracle placed his palm upon my forehead and for a moment I could swear his eye tattoos were staring at me. Yet I found myself instantly calmed.

When I asked what he had done, he would not say, but he offered to teach me a technique to calm myself and banish the darkness from my nightmares. It is a lucid method by which I would conjure my own stars into the dream, brighter than the desert sun.

I thanked him for his wisdom and promised to return the next eve for my lesson. As I stood to leave, I glanced in his direction. He was staring ahead, as before, a somber expression on his face. His tea remained untouched. I said no more and closed the tent flap behind me.

It would seem my visions have disturbed the Oracle as well, but I trust that his judgment and foresight will carry us through whatever darkness looms on the horizon. I pray to Dreeg that the Oracle’s teachings will spare me further nightmares."

I bolded relevant sentences to emphasis my point about Draellus/Dreeg’s trepidation & grim admittance toward Yugol’s threat, and his calm/kind/fatherly assurance to the occultist, because he seems to be wishing this occultist to be strong enough to bear the burden of knowing Yugol’s existence.

Draellus/Dreeg’s lucid method of conjuring your own star into the dream that is brighter than the desert sun seems very analogically simbolical to the fact of how the 3 witches struggle to usurp korvaak and gain the eldritch throne & eldritch sun. It would seem that the 3 are really serious about using eldritch realms’ power to aid humanity against yugol (and chthonians and aetherials and unreasonable celestials)

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1906

Yeah, and ultimately that’s why I am OK with aiding them against Korvaak. Yes, they stole that power undeservedly from a true Primordial god… But said god was a pampered, petty being prone to rages when his desires were not met or when not worshipped enough. Just check the lore notes on Horran and how he made the guy live forever with the guilt of killing his wife as a sacrifice to Korvaak (after he refused and wanted to kill himself instead). Or what he did to Rhenet who yes, deserved to be taken down a peg, but all the people who worshiped him being turned to rats? Those people still worshiped Korvaak as their prime god… That’s right down to biblical old testament God levels of “seven times seven generations” punishment levels of scorn.
Dreeg and the others might got their powers by dirty means, but they use it to save their followers and humanity itself from greater powers, while other gods just sit idly by, like Mogdrogen.

Btw, wanted to ask… the Korvan Expedition notes. There are only 4 entries? The last one where they imprison their “babysitter” Luminari (or Aetherial possessed) in the tomb and then reach the city, and then… how does it end? By the end it seems to be that Roderick and his buddy were in search of power, not treasure. They refer to it in detail… so they might came to get at the Eldritch Throne too?
And this happened in the past, for sure, as the city was described as cooled volcanic stone spires and jagged rock. As opposed to how Amal and his friend saw the valley when they arrived in present time (since they say Kymon’s group) and were consumed by magma.
EDIT: Oh I forgot, there was a final and rather disappointing entry to this chain of diaries - they simply found nothing. I guess with Korvaak imprisoned, none of his currently displayed powers were present.

One more thing I am wondering about… the Ascendants, Rahn, Atepth, Horran, etc. I wonder what became of them when Korvaak was imprisoned. Maybe they lost their god-like powers and became mortals, since ultimately it all came from Korvaak? Or maybe some betrayed him and decided to serve the Witch Gods? Maybe the Emissary is one of them…

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1907

that’s why the game railroad us and the taken to ally with the 3 witches. because they might be deceptive and cruel, but they care for humankind. while the celestials are mostly selfish, unreasonable and vindictive. mogdrogen being the exception, since he genuinely cares for cairn’s wilderness and the rhowari. empyrion and menhir seems decent, but we never see their avatars/residual consciousness in game, there are also some decent celestials in lore, but they are obscure like empyrion and menhir.

their journey comes to an empty end. because korvaak’s imprisoned and they don’t know it. if only erulan empire knows about korvaak’s fate, they might want to interrogate korvaak, at least to find out what really happened to empyrion and his allies.

yeah i wonder about that too. no concrete evidence of their final fate so far. i do wonder what is the relations between Dreeg-Osyr, Bysmiel-Ateph, and Solael-Irrah, since the 3 witches has revered-level faction augments that strongly depends on the power of the 3 aforementioned ascendants. the only ascendant with decent info is Ateph, who is the personification of moon. and has old rivalry with Rahn, who is the personification of sun. it is also worth noting that the secret map room of rahn can only be accessed if you join solael’s cult and accept his honor-level faction quest.

1908

For those who haven’t read it:

Korvan Expedition - Final Entry

Were the tales of Korvan legends untrue? Were we led astray by false promises? What of the white-hot energy that once warmed the foundations of Korvan City?

There is nothing, no revelation, no great power. The temple runs cold, its heart a hardened mass of blackened glass. The great god who once dwelt here is gone. To where? I do not know. His fate is irrelevant to me. I care only for the power that lingered here and it is all gone.

I am alone now, a lifetime of work and friendship gone…wasted. Roderick lies dead, struck down by the ancient guardian of this place; the only indication that this place was ever worth a damn. Roderick gave his life so that I could reach the heart of the temple. His sacrifice was rendered pointless as the history that led us here proved to be no more than fables. I am certain a great power dwelt here once but it is long gone, perhaps claimed by another.

There is nowhere left for me to go, no reason for me to pursue an existence beyond these walls. And so I shall perish here as well, with the knowledge that my life’s work, my very purpose, was to waste. Or perhaps I should return to the guardian that felled my friend and allow it to take me as well, a final tribute to the Eldritch Sun of old.

1909

O.K. So I seem to be missing something in my timeline here.

-In the beginning there was Ch’thon.
-Ch’thon was deposed by his children the Primordials, lead by Empyrion (see Kronos in Greek mythology).
-The new Primordial Gods use the Blood of Ch’thon to fashion all mortal life.
-The Primordials rule humanity, again lead by Empyrion (see Zeus in Greek mythology).
-The dominant Primordials were Empyrion and Korvak, both Gods of Light.
This is the Golden Age of Cairn. The Gods walk among men, miracles are common, the Gods are largely benevolent. The darker beings are locked firmly away (as Ravager informs the player when questioned about his hatred for Mogdrogen).
-SOMETHING TERRIBLE HAPPENS HERE
-Empyrion is gone. Korvac and Ulzuin are terribly wounded. Once benevolent Gods are now increasingly cruel and distant. Their power is but a shadow of what it once was. The last lore entry mentions enemies and the Primordials tapping into a forbidden power to defeat them. Either the unnamed enemies defeat them anyway, or the forbidden power destroys/corrupts them.
-The wounded and twisted Primordials continue to rule for some time, maybe decades, maybe centuries, maybe even longer. It’s unclear.
-In this time the Gods no longer walk Cairn and Mogdrogen withdraws from Humanity almost entirely. Korvac tries to regenerate in the Eldritch Realm.
-The Witch Gods rise. They supplant the twisted and wounded Primordials who are still far too weak and/or apathetic to stop them.
-The Aetherials begin their preparations for invasion.
-The Witch Gods do not hold Ch’thon or the Aetherials in check. It is unclear whether this is through ignorance, apathy, or lack of ability. Both Ch’thon and the Aetherials grow steadily in strength throughout this time
-THE GRIM DAWN HAPPENS HERE-
-Long forgotten and suppressed Gods begin to rise.
-The Gods once again walk Cairn and miracles are common.
-But not in a good way.

So, my question here is, what happened between the Golden Age of Cairn and the Rise of The Witch Gods?
Who were the Primordials fighting against (and loosing, badly, it would seem)?
My thought (based purely on speculation) is that Yugol is at the root of everything happening here.
I’ve re-read pretty much all of the Lore I’ve found and come up zilch. I’ve gone through hundreds of entries in this list (all 1900+ entries will have to wait until I have a LOT more time, maybe when I retire in 30 years :wink: ) and found nothing else.
So, anyone know what I’ve missed here? Or is it not in game yet?

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1910

the witch gods does know about grim dawn and tried to held it in check by using dreeg’s future vision and bysmiel’s web of informant. bysmiel’s web does suffer almost complete destruction when grim dawn happens, but there’s still remnant of it working with what they can after gd. the eldritch catastrophe happened at the covenant of the 3 in east marsh adds a lot of problems to the 3 so they went into hiding to build up their strength against korvaak/aetherials/chthonians. there are some lore notes in conclave of the 3 where solael states that bysmiel’s web should be capable of holding the aetherials and chthonians for a while until the korvaak threat is dealt with.

the primordials (empyrion’s group) lost against their brethren who taps into the forbidden dark power of the void in the war of the gods. most of are banished into the far away celestial tapestry (probably another galaxy), destroyed, or went into hiding. korvaak got weakened by this lost of war too, and the 3 witches start their coup against korvaak due to dreeg’s vision of what’s the best path for humanity to reign supreme.

in the beginning of war of the gods, the primordials fight amongst themselves due to jealousy and hunger for supremacy. then some primordials started to use the forbidden and corrupting power of the void, which also meant they join the imprisoned and tortured chthon to fight against empyrion’s group. empyrion’s group got defeated and scattered all over the place.

maybe. the primordials and celestials are aware of yugol’s threat (based on yugol constellation’s description). dreeg is also aware of it (vision of terror lore note in conclave of the 3), but there is no concrete evidence that yugol is behind everything. yugol just appear suddenly in forgotten gods lore and stay in obscurity most of the time. it is very likely however that yugol will be a major threat in grim dawn 2 or something in future content.

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1911

Thanks so much for the info!
There is a huge hole in my collection of data regarding the War Of The Gods.
I’ve literally missed the whole thing!
And it explains so much.
Could you let me know where that info is found?
I really want to collect those Lore Entries!

1912

if you don’t have time to find the lores in game, grim tools or this site (https://grimdawn.gamepedia.com/Notes) collects all known lorenotes in game.

this is the lore note that says sagon/solael is confident that bysmiel’s web can hold the aetherials/chthonians at bay while the 3 visit korvaak to retire him permanently into other galaxy:

https://grimdawn.gamepedia.com/Convergence_of_the_Covenant

this is the lore note that shows draellus/dreeg is aware of yugol’s threat and he had devised a method to counter yugol’s influence to one’s mind:

https://grimdawn.gamepedia.com/Visions_of_Terror

this is korvaak’s thought/lore note embedded within his flesh (don’t ask me how it works, its magic), which details the aftermath of war of the gods, the treachery of several brothers and sisters of korvaak and empyrion that joins chthon and the void, and his humiliating imprisonment by the 3.

https://grimdawn.gamepedia.com/Ruminations_of_the_Primordial_One

1913

There’s also this ebook of the lore notes which you may find useful.

1914

Or if you want to read the localization files online, in where you can see the npc conversation dialogues, lore notes etc. And where you can search for words.

1915

Do you think Empyrion is still alive? Does he hold back Yugol?
And you noticed that we do not have an image of the Empyrion? We have the constellation Light of Empyrion and the Spear of Empirion, but not the Empyrion himself.
Quite strange, given his huge role in the universe.

1916

empyrion is still alive. according to korvaak’s rumination, he’s banished to the celestial tapestry (more like cast away into far away galaxy). yugol is still looming on the edge of gd galaxy (its black hole/oblivion incarnation anyway), so i think empyrion is busy holding him at bay with what little power he has. because all the celestials know the danger yugol poses against all creations.

my theory is that empyrion is wounded heavily by the chthonian deities and minions, so he knows he lost the battle, then retreat far away with only a few strength he got left, closer to the edge of gd galaxy. It’s to recover his strength while holding yugol at bay with his remaining light. since yugol can’t be left unchecked. empyrion’s light still shone through the grim dawn universe (several items and skills (particularly oathkeepers) still retains a residue of empyrion’s blessing.

its strange that empyrion has no physical depictions at all other than a swirling galaxy radiating light. erulan empire devotes itself to empyrion, yet we didn’t find any single facial depiction of empyrion. maybe the chthonians are defacing and destroying every single building/statue that honors empyrion, but its unbelievable that none of them survive the grim dawn. perhaps if we visit the erulan capital in gd2, we’ll get to see remnants of the empyrion temples. korvaak has a lot of statues depicting him in his past perfect form. and we see him in the flesh. so yeah, its weird that his brother empyrion who has bigger influence on cairn doesn’t have any statues/temples in gd.

he’ll return at some point… maybe not in the flesh, probably a disembodied voice/fragment of his essence gaining consciousness or possessing some mortal vessel because yugol is seriously going to be a major threat in gd 2 imo.

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1917

The Empyrion was not banished, he simply disappeared, it is even possible that he merged with the universe and ceased to be a person and became more like a force of nature

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1918

that is plausible. i merely consider in empyrion’s case banished has the same meaning as disappears. when we defeat korvaak, according to the emissary, korvaak is banished far away into the celestial tapestry, where his influence to the physical world become so weak since the taken and the 3 dealt a crushing blow to the korvan cults. in empyrion’s case, kymon’s chosen who believe sister rasomething-something’s news of kymon betraying them chose to keep believing in empyrion and holding back the chthonians. and empyrion is majorly worshipped by erulan empire, so there is a lot of empyrion worshippers out there, in towns or in the wilds.

i still wish to see any remnants of empyrion temple, at least to read lores about empyrion from the past.

1919

To be fair, misidentification is a common mistake. One god with light and fire and another can be so alike…

Name’s Sister Girra by the way. You warp her to Sorrow’s Bastion. IDK about Haggan or whoever the Bysmiel cult needs the artifact off of. Can we warp him too?

1920

yeah, korvaak and empyrion’s element is very similar: fire and light. korvaak seems more focused on the fire and rage part, while empyrion has both fire and light but in a balanced kind of way. this is just my interpretation from both god’s constellation.

funny thing though, korvaak’s mask give bonus to piercing and elemental (inquisitor stuff…). i don’t understand if the piercing part has any connection to the lore, but the elemental part do ties strongly with the power of eldritch realm. in fight with korvaak, he shouts “REALITY. BECKONS. TO MY WILL” when he’s dropping those purple slow lethal meteors. this seems to imply that korvaak has strong connection to the 3 elements through his position as eldritch sun. other than the eldritch realm, aether realm has connection to the element too aside from aether and vitality (arcanist skills and gears support this).

we can’t warp haggan and those ex-korvaak cultists to sorrow’s bastion. if we let them escape without the artifact, they just part with us in uneasy peace, and the bysmiel cultist woman who gave us the quest will be astonished by your decision to let them go, then call you a pervert (lulz), then shrug off about all that mess since she believes haggan and his company won’t survive the korvan desert. if we choose to not let haggan and company go, they’ll just end up dead in our hands.

1921

I don’t think that the gods keep to a certain damage type. They could probably use any sort of magic they want. And that confuses me about Ulzuin using whine and concubines.

Could it be that the Messenger is actually Ulzaad?

I am still wondering what Byscilla was actually doing to slow down the aetherials in Malmouth.

More curiously about Mogdrogen on how he got ascended and his part in the war of the gods (besides beating Ravager).