State of non physical Retaliation ?

Have you guys tried some Elemental retalition yet? Physical Retal and Octavius re waiting to be nerfed. Acid Retal doesn’t seem to emerge from what I see in the threads and Compendium.

I have tried this Hybrid Retal / Proc Paladin. Good enough to facetank Lokarr and do SR45-50 but no more than this.

Any thoughts on Elemental Retaliation ?

Here is my attempt(s) in Lightning retaliation / retaliation added to attack I have not gone far into SR or Cruci, yet but I can tell that this dude do not have enough defenses (armor & block) to perform even close to physical retal tanks.

EDIT: I have started a build diary for an acid retal build here (the basic build I GD-stashed and tried, the damage was totally ok but you are not as tanky as a warlord)

I tried Perdition and the damage is so good, but I find aegis clunky so I didn’t like it. On paper it’s the only acid retal build that’s good and the only one that could come close to phys.

Fluff once mentioned that lightning is good and there’s indeed a ton of sources for that but the damage numbers are too random for it to be consistent, on paper at least. Also dawnbreaker set needs attack speed for retal savagery to be good, imo.

Fire just doesn’t many retal sources for it. Maybe you can go full phys retal gear and devo then use hellborne for conversion? Maybe that can work but it won’t be anywhere as tanky as phys.

Has anyone tried dawnbreakers?

Yes, see above

Or did you mean the full Blue set?

Tooled this:

with conversion, total fire retal gets to around 96k, close to physical’s around 110-130k. With all procs it falls short, only around 160k while phys easily gets upwards of 200k-300k, even more. Not having shield hurts. It has a good amount of burn tho and 47%!! total retal to attack on RF, 20% on bursting round, and if it works the same way I think, then chilling rounds and storm spread get that full 47% on each projectile.

(I had a “502 bad gateway” error and couldn’t post).

My idea was to use all those items with +flat fire retaliation but not necessarily +%retal damage, like Dawnshard pieces.
I also theorycrafted other hybrids: a G&B Fire Retal Sentinel and a Perdition EoR Sentinel (done multiple times) but didn’t try them yet. But apparently, if you don’t go Soldier and full Retal items, it seems underpowered.

We should maybe wait a little to see how the nerf/buff hammer will hit next patch.

Does conversion on items work on flat retaliation damage on items?

nvm: found that it does not.

i am hoping fire gets attention next patch. Been rooting for it for a long time now

oh, seems based on the DE oppressor thread, coverrsion does now work on retal. just doesnt show on GT.

We need more sources for fire, and more devotions for it that don’t require shield. Hellborne is really interesting.

Btw, seeing as you already played Hellborne, do each projectile from Chilling Rounds/Storm Spread get full retal damage on RF?

I’d say yes instinctively (?). I have an eye on Hellborn builds too, I’d like to find the gameplay I used to have on my very first toon: Commando with 2HR Adversary.

As you are the BWC specialist here, have you find a way to make use of the +retal mod on BWC work ? (on this shield)

And also, enjoy your moment of glory, x1x1x1x2 in :rolleyes:

I did a few TC with Hellborne to play around with a few concepts. The big potential issue that I saw with some atk->retal skills (RF, chilling rounds, etc) was the dot portion limiting the attack-speed skill to a certain extent.

However, how does retaliation dot apply:

  1. each skill using retaliation stacks (not with itself, though, but with all other r->atk dot portions)
  2. or much like weapon damage dot, only the single highest value of atk->retal dot will stack for all of the collective skills that use a portion or more of retaliation damage


chilling rounds maybe , not sure about spread. I tried it in many ways and in theory it should tear shit up but it does not seem to do so

I gut 35K burn and 35K flat fire in GT without bonuses caused by enemies on. All in town. It does not perform well

Lol when did I become a BWC specialist? Last time I did BWC was 0.4 :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway, retal mod is too low. BWC hits once per second even if you stack them all (hits once per second but the damage is counted for all stacks). With spam BWC, you can realistically stack around 4 at 12/12 with kiting (duration doesn’t increase until 22/12, which is unrealistic for retal) which lasts 4 seconds. That’s 48% retal per second. You can increase duration with herald but it converts phys to fire which is a dps loss since you wanna go phys retal.

Now compare your 48% retal per second to other retal builds:

BWC - 48% per second estimated
Stoneguard RF - 72% per second at 150% AS (3 atks per second), not counting WPS retal mods. More if you count them
DE - 24% per tick. I think it ticks around 8x per second at 160% CS, so 192%. This has massive lifesteal, btw

I’m probably biased here cause my perspective looks at top builds;. BWC retal can be good, just can’t compete with the popular retal builds, imo.

And also, enjoy your moment of glory, x1x1x1x2 in :rolleyes:

I never made that name association until now. Hmmm.

This is the build I’ve been playing for Elemental BWC recently. Medal could probably be swapped out to Crest of Winter Fortitude to improve it a bit more but it’s ok as is right now.

I’ve yet to get up to high shards in SR or reach Nemesis with any factions with it but I’ve beaten Lokarr and Mogdrogen.

The damage on it feels pretty nice for how tanky the character is. It might not look like it but Cocktails do 9.9k-20.2k Fire/Cold/Lightning damage and with all temporary buffs active 16.8k-33k. RR is easily applied instantly through Censure + Agonizing Flames and Thermites aren’t hard to keep up either. I often see Cocktails crits on this ranging from 70k to 100k and they stack. My most damage done is 437979 (not sure when/how it happened but I’m guessing it’s from an Avenger crit?).

Where the character starts to fall down as you can expect is dealing with really, really hard Physical hitters. I mentioned above that I’ve beaten Lokarr but when he spawned with this weapon, I started seeing sudden oneshots and had to be careful. I’ve also tried Ravager with this character and while it can facetank him down to 50% health, it can’t handle him when he enrages, even with consumables (this is also where my most damage taken is from).

After the rollback, 3 of my builds/guides with non-physical retaliation have been deleted. I’ll leave the GT links here and won’t do a guide for them again, especially with the new patch that will surely change the impact of retal’ on the meta:

Guide and build for G&B elemental Retaliation Shieldbreaker - SR-75 passed:

Perdition Acid Retal’ Archon (Note: Sentinel variation is also viable) - SR-75 passed:

Templar Mirror of Ereoctes Elemental Retal’ - SR-75 passed:

So after the patch, how does non-phys retal fare? Especially Hellborne, that’s the one I’m most excited about.

Hellborne was one of my main excitements and wanted to post but it’s kinda meh.

The buffed devtions, messenger of war, But Nerfed mod on helmet, bleh

The only eleme retal build I didn’t try yet is Hellborne. I gave up on saving my Retal Grenadier. The loss of dps on both AoM and BWC hurt the build too much. I hoped the new changes in devo and items would overcome the overall nerf on retal’ but it’s not the case in this build.

I don’t know if Acid Retal (- of the Three, especially) performs well now. I’d have to try.

This is my TC of Hellborn for

(I can’t check if the link is good, apparently Safari and MACOS consider GT website as unsafe for the moment).