Not really a vacuum, Termite Mines may still have a higher upper limit on RR but it takes so many more skill points than all other skills (except celestial presence I suppose, but that is passive). I think it would be more fair for the earlier ranks of TM to be more comparable to all the other RR skills. Just reduce the max soft cap a bit to curb the upper limit.
Thx for the explanation, this helps understanding the reasons better. To be fair Demolitionist did get tankier via Blast Shield. The buffs to Demon Fire and Ulzuin’s Wrath do make those abilities better, but also require a lot more skill points than just one pointing high potency for phys dmg reduction. This combined with having to basically put 13/16 points into TM instead of 10/16 at the very least makes the demo mastery overall more interesting, but also way more skill point starved. Builds that before could just dump 26/16 points into TM, can’t do that as easily anymore.
I don’t have pretty much any data on “overperforming builds” as I’ve been told play only “exotic” builds and HC, so can’t really push the builds to their limits consistenly enough to give you proper data. SR is very inconsistent due to RNG and I don’t play enough crucible. I’ll play some crucible this patch to give you proper data for the underperforming builds.
The Saboteur I have certainly wasn’t overperforming pre patch and isn’t now either (even though the grenado buffs did help a bit, thank you for that!). Neither is the Stormrend Elementalist. Canister Bomb Sorc got nerfed multiple times already, but doesn’t justify taking down all other demos alongside it imo.
Anyway making this thread might have been a little overhasty, but I wanted to make this thread for a topic that many people felt the need to talk about.
From the build compendium:
builds using TM only for RR, which imo weren’t overperforming:
What about adding thermite mine radius at a specific level? For example, the mines will get a 0.1 target meter area at skill level 6/10/16/21/26 so a maxed level mines will get 0.5 meters, the RR value can stay the same as it is currently.
We are always happy to review patch changes based on feedback, but we need context and data that goes beyond “I don’t like it”, which unfortunately is what most knee-jerk reactions immediately post-patch tend to be.
This goes for this change or for any other changes now or in the future. If your builds are adversely affected by a patch, present your case with data we can work with. You don’t even need to worry about coming up with solutions to the problem, just show that there is a problem.
Now what someone considers a problem is naturally going to be a little subjective since everybody has their own standard for what is acceptable or unacceptable performance, so while we absolutely do consider feedback, we will not always act upon it nor will we necessarily make exactly the changes you expect.
To sanity check, have you played these since the patch? Mines nerf, but EoR buffs, elementalist survivability buffs, damage buff against targets not in the mine radius, wondering if it ends up being a wash. Which fits in with the general feedback request: are they still at the SR65 and SR80 benchmarks you have a bunch of experience with or is that no longer achievable?
I changed my old elemental builds into another damage types except the DW FS Shieldbreaker; https://www.grimtools.com/calc/nZoOA79Z . This build lost %15 RR with the patch and extra flat 5 from the scales. It was already not a damage based build, more like a if you survive you can kill. I made it to become pilotingproof/chillplay. Now it will take much longer to kill things. Since the patch I was thinking what can I do something different with a shieldbreaker…
I do like the nerf, just not the extent of it. All demo builds have been nerfed significantly harder than other mastery; was Demo globally over-performing? Players which kept Mines uncapped are faced with needing to find up to ~10 skill points to maintain RR at former levels. More if you include the damage reduction debuff shift from high-potency.
I think that it isn’t particularly useful to ask for data regarding a change to a base skill that affects all builds, including end-game or not, and over-performing or not. There would be quite a lot of data and analysis. A simple comparison and nerf to bring mines more in line with other RR skills, alongside specific build nerfs (e.g Infernal Knight?), makes most sense to me. Following this, mines was significantly more potent than all other elemental RR skills, but now it is unseated by Raging Tempest which scales 4 skill points faster.
I don’t think this is true. The ‘premium’ can be justified not just by the deployment (which has been made easier) but by the sustainability. CoF/DS/WoP/SW have lengthy, guaranteed durations of effect tied to them. VoS/Censure are permanent (assuming you don’t get nulli’d) as long as an enemy is nearby. Thermite Mines have no such benefit and the RR ends as soon as an enemy takes two steps off the mines toward you, which they all inevitably do. For my melee character, above, this isn’t really a problem because I throw the mines at my feet and keep the enemies there, but this is inherently an issue for casters/ranged characters that are moving around a lot. For them, the ‘premium’ of RR allows them to briefly pump out more damage while an enemy is debuffed before needing to kite away/recast the mines.
To this end, though my (melee) builds aren’t too greatly hammered by the currrent status-quo, I’m in favor of Rekt’s suggestion.
Yes, play first complain second.
For example I didn’t like the idea of Grenado moving faster, but in reality I barely notice the difference. On the other hand I didn’t care about shorter disengage animation while now I know I liked the longer one more.
Forget about the release notes and go check how it actually feels.
(You’ll know it when you actually use it.)
Thermite Mine needs to keep stepping on it’s target.
Therefore, often times the build may have to be Tanky.
And the more Tanky the build is, the less firepower it may have.
So, for Thermite Mine, I think that a slightly higher RR number isn’t breaking the balance.
For example, I don’t need to make my builds too Tanky,
if I use RR skills that allow me to attack while running away(or Fire and Forget), as shown below.
I don’t have to make my build Tanky, so I can increase my firepower instead.
So even if these are nerfed a bit, it doesn’t bother me much.
-Curse of Frailty
-Aura of Conviction
Because of difference between these and the Thermite Mine,
I think a little distinction needs to be made about the adjustments to the RR values.
I would like that mines RR debuff stays 5 seconds after the enemy stepped away from the mine. Then it would be fair.
Also, some builds heavily need compensation (like fire Forcewave Commando). I guess some RR sources like Combustion ring or Iskandra offhand could be buffed with more RR