Crucible, a DLC with a price tag, is currently pretty bad for loot farming compared to FREE Shattered Realm. SR doesn’t punish nearly as much for deaths, and even the farm rate in SR is higher.
What is even an incentive for a loot oriented legit player to buy Crucible? To torture themselves?
A chance of Celestial MI won’t break anything. Overall it will be much harder to farm it in Crucible than in campaign, on your terms and having the whole Cairn for kiting.
Shattered Realm isn’t free, lol. It’s part of FG, an expansion you have to buy on top of the base game AND AoM.
Because some people like survival horde mode? Plus, Crucible was a Kickstarter stretch goal, it was gonna be made regardless if the devs were gonna make it incentive for loot farming (in my opinion it should never have had loot in it in the first place).
Zantai went as far to remove certain boss items from the Crucible recently. I very much doubt he wants to start putting Celestial MIs in it.
To be fair this has gotten noticeably better over the last two patches with more non-FS builds pushing 5 or lower results with consistent 75-76 clears (rutnick pally or oppressor, deathdealer warlord [cadence!] or oppressor, vitality RF oppressor, and now the passthrough sandspitter pally or oppressor options off the top of my head) but overall could still use some love compared to throwing together almost any firestrike build. Smite on pistols, especially with damage mods, is so strong it can basically carry RF builds if there is a decent amount of flat, for better or worse. Savagery and primal strike ranged have world beaters with VoS but much more modest (PS) or not fun to play (savagery) without it imo.
Handful of additional buff requests in the ranged thread or elsewhere as I’m not expecting another baseline gun revamp after the additional of a bunch of physical conversion mods and hydra revamp in 1.1.9. If elemental cadence, fire RF, and some options for savagery land in 1.1.9.2, I’d personally be happy with the diversity. Top end fire strike is still going to be better than 95% of other builds with the green crossbow, dagallon, or insane flat damage darkblaze, but that ship has probably sailed. If you tone down FS now to match RF/Savagery/Cadence, then all of ranged is a tier lower than average melee or caster build which seem to trip over 4:30 SR75-76+ stable options these days. Could just be the design plan, as even with bumrushing mobs ranged can definitely still kite say grava where melee can’t, while in theory leeching better than non-weapon damage casters (that now basically don’t exist because everything has a leech option).
I was gonna answer to you but then i saw this
and i think we’ll just stop here to avoid cluttering the topic.
As a player who played a lot of SR, but was completely new to Crucible since a few weeks ago, I disagree with this sentiment. I really tried to learn Crucible, Tributes, the buffs, the turrets, but in the end I just ended up GDstashing the Tributes over and over again. IMO, Tributes and their bonuses should be completely removed and naked Crucible should just become the Meta. It should help with drawing in people who don’t want to learn alien, isolated mechanics in an otherwise heavily inter-connected game. I thought the community views Crucible as the best place to test builds. Tributes and randomness are hampering that build-testing ability.
Even though Reaping Strike ended up being a bit too good in its current iteration, I really like the impact it had and I think it would be great if some other relics received similar treatment. There is a number of relics which, on their own, do give decent bonuses and relevant +skills to their corresponding masteries, but their granted abilities are a bit of an aftertought.
Korvaak’s Deception is a good example of this. It has an active that is completely useless to casters. If I were use it on a fire/chaos caster, like a Pyro, I would be doing so knowing the granted skill will never be used. When I look at it from the perspective of an auto-attacker and compare it to Annihilation, at least on the pure fire side Annihilation seems way more appealing. It helps fix energy, if that’s a problem for the build, increases attack speed, gives flat attack damage, boosts spirit so that the character can potentially save some attribute points for more physique for melee survivability…and the proc ain’t too shabby either. If Blazing Eruption were a weaker WPS for fighters or a proc nuke that can benefit casters, I think the relic would be much more appealing. As a weaker WPS it would at least not require the brainspace to use the skill every 3 seconds for mediocre payoff (and a ton of energy that fighters may not be able to recover too easily).
Similar could be said for Scourge. Cold + Vit does not have a great abundance of spammable attacks. If Scourge Strike were to receive the Reaping Strike treatment, it would be a great boon to many Reapers I’m sure. Doomforce. I get it’s a big AoE ability but…it feels like it doesn’t do anything. For a skill that has a 4 second cooldown, it pales in comparison to just a decently supported zero-cooldown two-handed Forcewave. If it were a reactive “when struck” proc, at least it would be quietly doing some work in the background without taking up casting time from skills that end up doing way more work.
Aside from that, as I mentioned in the V1.1.9.1 Discussion plain vanilla fire/phys two-handed EoR could really use some love. Currently two-handed EoR is limited to a grand total of three of items, two of which go into wild conversions (chaos and vit) while the last one grants incomplete lightning-to-phys conversion and no fire conversion on what is meant to be a phys/bleeding build, and adds bleeding DoT to a skill that is meant to be doing its damage through super rapid application of flat damage. It would really just take one or two MIs or legendaries with good fire/phys support for two-handed EoR to open up a variety of possible builds, from Shieldbreakers and Templars to Warlords. Warlords can already kinda try two-handed EoR through Gutsmasher, but the addition of DoT doesn’t really do the build much good, while Shieldbreakers and Templars really have nothing going on on the two-handed EoR front. Lots of fire or fire+phys two-handed weapons, not one of them supports EoR in any meaningful way. Blazerush is about the closest it gets for Shieldbreakers and it’s hilariously weak compared to double Alladrah’s Spellblades. If the build were to try go the lightning route instead with Cindertouch it again fails to find any lightning weapon that supports EoR or Oathkeeper (Alvarick’s Rebuke is about as good as it gets and that lacks attack speed). Templars can maybe try Aether EoR with Temporal Arcblade and the Aether conduit, but finding items with Aether + EoR support outside the weapon, Soulare’s Helm and amulet is a fruitless endeavour. They do get full conversion at least, something two-handed fire or phys EoR Shieldbreakers could only dream of, but they pay for it by having to choose between EoR skill bonuses or aether damage on most of their slots.
Also, after recently starting to play the game multiplayer, I noticed some discrepancies in mobility skill behaviour. In many instances, my character with a leap skill was capable to jump through walls, pillars etc., where my ally’s teleport skill stopped dead on the same obstacle. One would expect that to be the other way around, or at least for both skills to have the same movement capability.
Lastly, I would again like to mention the audio for Theodin Marcell’s taunt voicelines being way too low compared to someone like Warden Krieg (Fleshweaver is also a bit on the mumbly side) or Korvaak. It would make for a much more atmospheric boss fight if Theodin wasn’t essentially talking to himself the whole time 
We’re talking about a very small fraction who can even beat normal, a smaller fraction of that who can beat Ultimate, a smaller fraction who can even beat Crucible 170 at all, and an even smaller fraction who have computer set-ups where sub-5 Crucible is even possible. I don’t know why 5 minutes suddenly became this hardpoint, as many of my characters can do consistent SR75-76 with the timer but my laptop Crucible times are in the 7-8 minute range. How many minutes did @Superfluff shave off by getting a non-potato set-up? That’s where the real pay-to-win factor comes into play.
Where every other game goes procedurally generated random everything, I’m super happy Crate decided to do a Crucible mode with hand-picked enemies. Yes, I wish Waves 159 and 169 had more consistent enemies to balance out the FG ones being stronger than the base game. Yes, I hate the combo of Korvaak + Dravis at Wave 169 cause that means Korvaak’s death animation will surely last through Wave 170. Maybe we can work out some smart enemy comboes so that Wave 159 and others have 3-4 possible options and they’re all equally difficult instead of some being super easy and others being a mess.
But a Celestial at Wave 170+? Making naked the norm where you’re getting 30K DPS incoming damage at the same time? NO!
How come does @Nery make 5-minute builds regularly with possibly the worst laptop on the forum?
(no saying they wouldn’t be faster on a better machine but come on)
Yeah I can’t even play GD on my computer 
so my CR times are infinite
stupid p2w game, need a computer to play
I’m waiting 
You dare to challenge me? 
With low fps wild stuff happens in game. I can go through walls or get stuck under bridges, sounds fun. I think there is one bad thing though and sometimes my damage doesn’t apply, that sucks! But on the other hand enemies also deal no damage. 
Worst when there are tons of enemies, like Malmouth or Korvan City, game becomes a slideshow (crucible with high corpse persistencr lmao)
So in conclusion, Nery is a god.
Try to run it in WProton. No matter what PC specs, as soon as there is more then three enemies attacking on screen, you will have 1 fps. If you play with pulseaudio daemon active that is
As for this thread feedback, maybe make fire retal a thing? Stuff in the game (items, devos) suggest it should be a thing, while it’s either just a side stat or food for conversion.
Not a bad theme for some demonic new set, isn’t it? It would convert phys to fire as set completion bonus (as Hellborne does, which afaik makes it the only semiviable rata item with fire dmg output).
@banana_peel this is not necessarily such a bad idea. Crucible shifting from farming to strictly testing grounds could be interesting.
But of course it would have to be accompanied by stuff you mentioned above, and I wrote about in this old thread: [Wish List] Improvements to Crucible
In short I proposed an alt more in crucible with no (or selectable) mutators and no loot as well as stuff like integrated timer, remembering the banners and blessings for a one-click setup, etc.
This would be awesome. But would interfere with the crucible-as-testing-grounds postulate. I’d make a celestial fight an optional third round after 150-160 and 161-170 but only accessible after traditionally beating 170 from 150.
Um… and what was the hard part to learn about it? Sure it lacks tutorial but same is for the whole game. And forums have good Crucible guides with the list of tribute earnings and buff/banner properties.
I also don’t like the concept of buffs and banners, but the whole gamemode is already balanced around them. Removing them would require a huge Crucible balance overhaul because rn only a handful of builds can be marked as “naked proof”.
Maybe i phrased it wrong. Of course, I meant ~5 mins in the hands of a good pilot with good PC as a benchmark. Because it usually means that a regular player with average PC will manage ~6mins to be able to squezze in 4 runs within the buff timer or at least 3 with bad spawns and mutators.
7-8 mins indicates either of three things: 1) severe system performance problems 2) the build is not suitable for the gamemode (single-target or retal tank) 3) complete lack of understanding the gamemode. I started playing GD when i had omegapotato laptop and i know from experience the time difference for the same build on different systems. It’s not higher than 40 secs under any circumstances.
Now you are heating up for no reason. Who said anything about the norm? There are some tanky builds that would enjoy a harder challenge of naked Crucible. Why not reward them with a drop booster for tributes for their efforts? More diversity for the gamemode is good. Rn naked is just a useless torture.
Ngl it’s very surprising to me how many people think that an official DLC with a price tag and a steam entry which has no story content, no levels, no new monsters and no unique items and only consists of several arenas should have loot at the very least. But i don’t think it’s a place for such discussion.
I wanna fight Lokarr at the end of Crucible. Would be dope
secret wave 171.5 - lokarr get so pissed you keep defeating his challenges he steps in the ring 
My heated reaction was a direct response to this quote:
I know other Crucible players like @Dmt prefer to play naked Crucible as well and wanted SR to be exactly like naked Crucible where all 4 Bosses rush you at once with no buffs to compensate. My response? Not as long as awful mechanics like this from Reaper Nemesis:
9% Chance to be Used
4 Second Skill Recharge
10% Weapon Damage
510 Physical Damage
486 Vitality Damage
15% Reduction to Enemy’s Health
670 Bleeding Damage over 2 Seconds
425 Reduced target’s Defensive Ability for 3 Seconds
40 Reduced target’s Resistances for 5 Seconds
continues to still be in the game.
As for Crucible clear times; I care much more for consistency than clearing, even if it means I have to kite more to make sure I’m not eating a billion MQ spikes or wasting time at Wave 169 to delete Korvaak before the 170 Wave starts. With melee, I’m assuming that clear times and consistency are one and the same, as hitting things to kill them = leeching Health so that you can facetank many more enemies.
Though it’s hard to gain sympathy when Crucible video descriptions are about how bad something like Lightning Forcewave is, and then you watch the video and it’s because you beat Grava in 10 seconds instead of 3. I know, relative differences and all, but that pushes discussions to “anything that isn’t a double RR class isn’t even worth bothering with” when that’s not the case in the slightest.
Crucible became much more punishing for kiting builds and you can’t rely only on positioning because sometimes you can get a combo of 3 hard hitter that won’t leave you along even for a split second. So if your build can only survive by kiting for a long time then 1) it’s not reliable 2) not suitable for the gamemode. Luckily the customization is so rich at this point, there is almost always a way to increase your passive defences for more consistency.
So you missed the part when i said it was the only one of the many Grava encounters i managed to survive? And the performance was still poor compared to other builds with Soldier?
What pushes? What are you talking about? A lot of strong builds are single RR. My four strongest melee builds are single RR. Ok, i’m stopping now, this is going nowhere.
It’s interestingly how this topic turned in Crucible discussion and performance.
But I see the issues people have and their point of view. Crucible was pretty exotic even before SR after FG perhaps even more. Still for veteran theoryctafters it’s excellent test ground for builds capabilities, cause it gives you taste of all type of enemies and finding the needed balance between offense/defense, brute damage /RR, single target vs AoE. Crucible can show easily overpowered and overpeformed items/skills and can underline weakness, underperforming classes/builds etc.
I like the Crucible for test ground purposes but if that’s the nature of it, you can see why it’s less popular with majority of players. Even if it came in your bundle…
Speaking of Crucible times and PC capabilities. Definitely weaker systems affect your times and for me it’s harder to reach community standards, no matter what they are. But if you develop your skills and with some experience, you can achieve pretty decent times, fighting against your hardware limitations. Then subtract few seconds because of lag and you will have clearer picture. I guess it’s less fun to play with everything on low and still lagging but crafting builds is the most enjoyable part anyway. 
Hopefully this thread(and others) can improve even more build diversity. And may Grim Tools guide you!
If it were that easy, then every build would find a way to access these methods and obtain better consistency. The fact that there are types that do struggle - like Lightning Melee, Ranged Savagery and so forth - means that it isn’t nearly as clear cut as you want it to be.
Many classes don’t have access to either a 3-second “delete everything on the screen that you can” button like Arcanist or a very strong Physical damage source where you’re dealing with -50% less resistance than every other damage type in the game like Soldier. In a game mode like Crucible where the enemy’s Health is 3 times less than what they are in high SR, it can easily come down to either deleting the boss before it uses its debuffs (which then becomes an “I win” button) or you face a situation where you’re dealing 1/5th of the damage you were before because you didn’t reach the magic DPS number. Games like to avoid that rapid-jerk randomness, but when you’re talking 5-6 minutes of combat, you have to do something the provide a challenge that rewards well-crafted builds without making it a snooze fest.
For the record, I agree with you that Grava’s pools are worse than any other Nemesis ability in the game. I also provided another concrete thing that could be changed to remove that randomness, because there are very few builds which would survive a Boss which randomly takes 40 Physical resistance for 5 seconds while also spawning Wraiths which have Stackable -% Physical RR as well.
All in all, there’s way too many factors that go into a game mode balancing discussion that it’s near impossible to talk about one thing without it being intrinsically linked to another thing.