I keep hearing that 2 hander builds are on the whole, lacking compared to their dual wield counterparts.
Do our local min-maxers have any insight into this?
It is just a matter of survivability? Do 2handers on the whole need slightly higher base dmg, or speed? Is it just the individual items at fault? A different solution needed for each legendary/epic 2 hander?!?!!?
What do you guys think would put all those unused 2 handers back on the map?
Unlike DW they have less chance to lifesteal when fumbled and steal less when slowed. In general DW lifesteals well especially boosted by wps,
Large base DMG gap. Like from 170 to 700 or 800 something. Unpredictable dmg under pressure is dangerous.
This applies to 2h Savegery-like AA +WPS
Cadence seems to alleviate a bit of the problems cuase it’s more predictable. Every third hit you get massive % WD with huge flat dmg and you hit 3 targets.
Same for a PS with 2h. It has consistency.
So this to me is the problem for 2h AA
Today 2h is doing far better than it used to so it’s not endemic. It’s certain areas that need fixing.
There is also no innate advantage to 2h I think. DW attacks fast and lifesteals a lot. 1h can have shield or off hand CDR. 2h has?? At best some 2h transmuters that don’t fix everything
Im not entirely sure what kind of 2H youre talking about.
Semi caster, aka PS Stormreaver/Ultos https://www.grimtools.com/calc/dVbO7JgZ
Wildbood
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/1NXzwB8V
Winters Queen
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/d2jXy5jZ
Justicar
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/YVWKrQrV
Even Obsidian Tremor
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/q2mWxqDZ
All doing fine for they relative dmg-type cleartimes. Pure autoatackers lack clear time, and punching power, but I doubt this would change anytime soon.
The worst thing about 2H is lack of flexibility in component/augment. If we could insert two component intro our big nasty mace of doom , it would be much better.
And yeah, slow/fumble is sertain death for 2H AA builds. If you stand in fumble pool with Cadence 2H your effective dps is reduced by 75% . If you stand in Grava pool with additional %dmg debuff you do near-zero dmg.
2handers have many penalties compared to other setups:
No second component. Worse energy regen and cdr compared to 1h/offhand. Worse survivability due to no block compared to 1h/shield. Less dps, less phys res, no execution wps (in case of NB) compared to dw melee. Also slower attack speed than basically any other setup.
Now their only strength is basically highest weapon damage, which results in high bursts.
Imo crate should buff the unique strength of 2hs by either increasing their WD or crit damage, in order to get their dps (almost) up to the lvl of dw or increasing their survivability by buffing e.g. brute force in a similar way they buffed dual blades (adding phys res). Increasing their dps could be done by buffing the kraken nodes with more +all damage or +crit damage or +OA.
I’m not 100% sure this is the way they should buff 2h, but this would be a way to buff 2h while focuing on their unique strengh.
I am aware there are exceptions but from what I’ve seen I never see a lot of the 2 hander legendaries in any builds posted here. So clearly on average their clear times and experience must be worse, given how much our build makers love maximizing item potential.
But hey, I’m no expert on 2 handers. Out of all the things I’ve played, I’ve played 2 handers the least. Less than tanks even. I have just heard for months now from various people I know make serious builds that they on average are lacking so this thread is mainly to see what everyone else says. I have no stake in it.
You are late to the party, most of these 2h builds were posted at 1.6.0.1 . 
Still, 2H melee AA is inferior to dw melee AA in most cases.
Another thing is that flat damage from sources (like belts for example) apply to BOTH weapons when DW.
This means that when DW, you benefit twice as much from stacking flat damage.
Easiest solution to 2H is to remove the AS penalty to it
While being one of easiest solutions, this streamlining you propose would start to hurt the identity of 2hs, which is slow attacks with big spikes. As I said before, imo it’d be better for 2h’s indentity to buff their WD and/or crit damage to further push their specific identity. Else 2h could start to feel too similar to dw.
It would still be a little on the unreliable rng side, but I imagine 2h should have higher dps with good rng and lower dps with bad rng than dw melee. Rng referring in this case to the rng of crits and also the damage inconsistancy attached to weapon damage values like 200-600. Currently with insane rng on 2hs you get at best the same dps as dw.
Besides dw also has some (but less) rng, mainly execution wps rng.
I mean, 2H are also prone to RNG from WPS…avenger’s set + zolhan’s technique comes to mind.
That’s another thing, the attack animation 2H have is absurdly long. It’s been tested before that taking a WPS like zolhan’s generally results in a lower DPS due to the overall decrease in AS.
Which, I’m assuming, was an unintended consequence of penalizing the AS of 2H’s.
If you want to increase the damage, I argue that you’d have to increase it substantially.
Currently, I’d only use 2H’s for channeled skills or for spell casting.
This is what the thread is about summed up nicely.
I agree with Rekt here. Speeding them up is an option but then they do lose their feel/identity.
The animation thing is actually super interesting and warrants a look from the devs I think. Speeding up animation time, at least in my modding experience, is as simple as changing a few numbers in the files.
So they’re not having issues surviving? It’s just the dps side? I had wondered if wielding a 2h should come with an innate 5% damage absorption passive or something. Seems not to be the case.
Shame that solutions involving programming are unlikely to make it in. Like letting them have 2 components or making it so they have a higher chance to proc WPS’s.
I’m just enjoying reading what you lot have to say since I don’t know how to address this issue.
Thinking about components on 2h compared to dw. While overall 2h is at an disadvantage having only 1 component, some components have basically twice the effectiveness for 2h. Haunted Steel and Seal of Blades. This kinda limits the use of components on 2h, as most of the time you pick one or the two, but at least they are just as good/better on 2h. So imo the component issue is not as big of a deal as some people imply it is.
Edit: ^It’s still worse for 2hs…
Wps animation time is rather annoying though, but as adoomgod said, the animation time itself should be fixed by increasing its animation speed (or by increasing its %WD, so that the slower animation time is not a dps loss) and not “fixed” by adding more AS.
The biggest reason why 2H’s lack survivability is the fact that they can’t kill as quickly as DW, which in turn results in monsters dry humping you for longer.
I actually think this is acceptable as any mother’s child can use a 2H. You need specific items or a specific class to DW, which to me means that there should be an advantage to DW.
However, I don’t think the advantage should be this noticeable. Even adding 5% phys res to all 2H weapons would go a long way.
Thinking about components on 2h compared to dw. While overall 2h is at an disadvantage having only 1 component, some components have basically twice the effectiveness for 2h. Haunted Steel and Seal of Blades. This kinda limits the use of components on 2h, as most of the time you pick one or the two, but at least they are just as good/better on 2h. So imo the component issue is not as big of a deal as some people imply it is.
Wps animation time is rather annoying though, but as adoomgod said, the animation time itself should be fixed by increasing its animation speed (or by increasing its %WD, so that the slower animation time is not a dps loss) and not “fixed” by adding more AS.
That’s not true at all.
If I use 2 haunted steals, I can use the active TWICE.
Seal of blades also gives me double the armor, and double the damage from the ‘aura’ - i.e. I have 2 sets of blades swirling around me.
In my opinion the issue lies in the damage itself. I think that two handed weapons (at least melee ones) should deal 400 minimum base damage and not grant any attack speed at all (most of them don’t give it anyway). Two weapons (dual wield) often reach 1.5 attack speed (sometimes even by just picking two swords, but generally it’s not hard to get 2.0 AS), while two handed weapons often reach under 1.5, but it’s still possible to reach higher values. The base damage dual wielding often gets (only weapon base damage) is 200 (because they often have about 100 base damage) and give some attack speed, so the minimum base damage often reaches up to 250, sometimes more, less, depends on the weapon, while in case of two handed weapons it’s… the same, therefore I think increasing the base minimum values to 300 - 400 would be the best idea to make them work.
Yes I know two handed weapons have higher percentage values, but when you dual wield you actually reach about 80 - 90% of the values two handed weapons grant.
You are right, it’s still worse for 2h.
I was only referring to the passive lifesteal you get, which in the case of dw only applies to one weapon. This part benefits 2hs just as much. All other buffs and actives are halved for 2hs as with all other components.
Was trying to find a small light at the end of the very dark tunnel, which 2hs have to walk through. x)
but when you dual wield you actually reach about 80 - 90% of the values two handed weapons grant.
^This. Exactly this.
My cadence WH has 22k sheet damage per weapon, and it exceeds some of my 2H builds.
A solid 2H is generally looking at an average of 25 - 27k sheet damage on GT.
IF you want to ignore AS completely, you’d need to buff the damage so much that it actually becomes viable.
Also, I personally prefer speed over damage. What good is chunking an enemy down to 1%, only to have to hit it a second time?
It’s overkill and wasteful IMO.
That still doesn’t solve the flat stacking issue. More consistent (lower gap) damage is welcome and necessary, yes, but at the same time, a total damage modified by 33-50% too would go get the 2 handers an edge and at the same time caters to their specific style.
Total damage modified by 30-50% is a bit much don’t you think? :eek:
I`d rather reduce fumble effectiveness on 2H if possible. :eek: That would make 2H unique and boost dmg output w/o changing numbers. :eek:
This would be absurd because it’d probably even increase skill damage etc. So if your skill has 200 base damage, and you have total damage modified by 50%, you’d have 300 base damage now. Would make casters kind of OP.