Upheaval build with other DAR than Savagery… That has never crossed my mind 
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ranged Cadence Upheaval Warder levelling 
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I was just wondering how it would interact with cadence, but I’m a little afraid to ask 
If not already mentioned, could try:
- not transmuted Forcewave (without tremor);
- transmuted Blade Arc (Clean Sweep);
- Callidor’s Tempest with “Wrath of Agrivix” transmuter.
The reason for my suggestion is simple, you need to hit your foes, otherwise u wait eternity for your next strike, which makes progress as tedious as it can be.
They might be really good transmuters/or without them, otherwise leveling should be hard imo.
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Speaking from experience – sadly – Zaria absolutely loves eating these attempted builds for lunch.
Zaria is very known for chaos RR and its one tap crystals, however, Bolvar ain’t any better novadays either tho (he also tends to almost one tap me and ruin my 0 death runs)… :v
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only if you limit yourself to 0 support skills (ie back to that earlier infamous "wuts the criteria"debate 
)
Think of it as similar to other cooldown skills levelling, Doom Bolt, Canister etc, we rarely just stand around waiting for 3-4secs on cd skill chars
Iiiif Cadence was special and could atleast trigger Upheaval it might have been dope, buuuut 
Iirc, swiss cheese memory, last i tried after the cool Upheaval devo interaction was realized, i think it turned out that didnt’ even apply to Cadence, making even that interaction worse than regular AA “on the discharge hit”/devo trigger amount wise
Would probably need to recheck to confirm it was that sadge tho
So what is the criteria gnome? Did I miss something important or we are breaking da rules somehow, me or u or we both…
no i mean, that’s my point, it was never specified, hence my earlier constant asking for elaboration
So unless you hamstring yourself solely picking blade arc clean sweep with 0 other support skills, yes that might not feel so good; which then feels like it might be made bad intentionally?/“selfgimping” considering we easily have skill points for something extra too, not even counting component (which turned out to be a whole other can of worms )
We should eloberate this question for our dear friend @MagpieMcGraw then. Cuz he is (still?) doing this experiment.
nono he already kinda did, there just isn’t like a set laundry list of “rules” since it’s not like as if a challenge style, but more like going with the flow of a build/levelling a char. (and wasn’t what i meant to make it ask like either but more curious what rationale each people used for their entries here)
And another aspect then being this turned out primarily about the very early game too, contra how some might pick up easily later/“everything” picks up mid game. So like a skill being sucky 1-40 then valid as getting a lvl 40 MI to make it good then doesn’t change it feelign that much worse the first part of the game. Likewise playing/early game “feel” on Normal difficulty wasn’t considered a factor since Normal too easy for anything
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Looking from this other side of view… now that I think of it… not me or anyone else had definite “correct answer” here it seems.
Sure: retaliation, gunslingers, aegis shield, the same upheaval now & many other similar ideas.
Honestly, developers did good job with the possibilities here. If we don’t lock in specific route, then yeah, I compeltely agree - everything seems doable again, but it makes me wonder if this question has any juice in it now since like locking in one spot isn’t a thing. Then it comes a question and word with “preference” what player likes to do.
that’s why i went on that longwinded tangent in the beginning of the thread, because, imo, without knowing each persons mindset/“criteria”/how they play to connect the dots, it’s hard to say XY skill is inherently or objectively bad, and i used that OFF/fireblast vs pure OFF as example.
So like, “to me”; when i see a cooldown skill, i would rarely ever only pick that cooldown skill, if i level canister main it’s usually followed with fireblast at minimum or even bwc or both later. But others might not, or could be there was (atleast initially) a perceived hard “rule” of 0 filler skills or 0 component skill (in which case my example with Olexra would suck a 100x more)
So if i’m levelling Clean Sweep, even if i’m not using cadence filler (deadly momentum etc); i might atleast pick wps, blitz, or; cooldown forcewave at the same time, get those trauma/bleed stacking.
But it depends how each person approaches it or thinks of a skill in combined context or exclusively singular.
Someone even brought a similar notion up with relation to Mag’s Defiler that was heavily using Vindictive flame for dmg. That made me realize/remember how strong something like VF or specially Spectral Wrath in Necro can be early game, potentially having the capacity to make a slightly less attractive “exclusive” FW/Clean Sweep/Doom Bolt main skill feel better, because Wrath is actually aoe killing trash groups at a distance for cheap in act 1-2.
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It makes perfect sense to me. At first I tho we were locking in when Mag bringed this question up. I was a bit wrong in that moment, probably misunderstanding things.
If we think like that then I end up thinking leveling anything is quite possible and there shouldn’t be worst unless you force it heavily with laughably odd intentions.
Tbf builds listed are not hard to level just for some reason he plays Gunslinger with shield and off hands , so his playstyle makes this build challenging all this would be prevented if he use Gunslinger talisman
i think that was the very goal, like which is the worst “on avg”, without extreme alterations “for or against”/improving or making the skill worse. Which might also be why it’s more about the early game and not how a skill can change to great mid game, because now canister/doom bolt is supported by bwc, or 3x lvl 40+modifiers MIs boosting heck out of it(reducing cooldown/adding flat dmg etc)
So my takeaway what’s meant was “does it feel horrendous/worse than other main skills” in ex act 1-2 (on Veteran+), and if doing OFF type deal “ofc” we’re using fireblast, but if we’re using Cadence ofc we’re not substituting in fireblast the first 25 levels (since that would be unnatural to most cadence players)
But whether that inherent combo/“natural approach” does apply to canister = +fire blast or Clean Sweep/CD FW include base aa+wps/blitz etc might not be equally as default shared as the OFF+fireblast “ofc we do” case
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I don’t know… if you know the games basics, mechanics and don’t limit to 1 specific skill, make combination of skills for a build, I think it would still be decently doable still, then we are arguing about peoples preferences on how to play.
EDIT: hi mag sorry for hijacking your topic :v
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Okay here’s how I do it. I plan out my build. Gear, skills and devos(but no components or augments). Then I play the build and I use the skills in the plan. I try not to deviate from the skills in the plan. If it says 10 in Frozen Core, then I take 10. Unless I forget. I’ll make small respecs to account for skill bonuses.
If possible, I’ll use damage types and weapon types that match the build plan. Ranged Defiler can’t be leveled with vitality damage, so I used what I had, which was fire.
Until I get my endgame components, I use whatever is available. But I try to match them to the build plan too. I prefer not to level with fireblast unless it’s an emergency.
Now for this thread. Some people don’t know how to maximize their characters, so they have a hard time leveling. People also have different standards for what is fast enough. And so we have many opinions on what is a bad leveling build. Do we really need to objectify and quantify the builds? I think not. Except Cadence, that’s at the bottom.
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I was planning a cadence build once and heavily maxing it out (with shaman tree). It wasn’t hard to level at all, at least for me. Then here starts our issue, I think that and you think this. Originally I was trying to be more focused on facts, hence my original statement on the defiler (many hate defiler as a class combo, including me). But that doesn’t mean the class isn’t doable, some even might enjoy it… I don’t. I hate using skeletons in first place but I heard Maya that she might be right about me wrong there. It’s again, personal preference.
Might have been wrong on accusing defiler as a bad class to level perhaps but wasn’t really clear on the goal to begin with.