[1.1.9.8] Chain of Anguish Discussion

[anon94264551]

Before the discussion, I have to mention that all the contents below are about SR, and they are not only my idea but a result of group discussion in our GD gourp. Also remember I’m not calling for a nerf.

Simply speaking, Chain of Anguish is now of great possibility of being abused in SR. It’s of high benefit but the risk is not enough.

First let’s review my discussion with @Banana_peel :

@banana_peel

I would agree on most of this section. The belt indeed seems to be very strong for a dot build in SR if you use it smartly.

We reach an agreement that Chain of Anguish is very powerful in SR if used smartly. The “used smartly” way is:

@anon94264551

• The damage penalty doesn’t affect already-dealt DoT
• In SR you walk much much more than in CR, and you don’t have to fight enemies continuously. You can hit one group of enemies, trigger the debuff and spend the 8 second on pulling other groups of enemies.
• A warlord has three charge-through skills, in some aspect the move speed penalty is avoided.
• It’s easy for Octavius set WL to have another 33% ele res over cap to avoid the ele res penalty.
• Now that an Octavius WL is having over 4000 armor and 44% phys res, the phys res penalty is not so hurting.
• In fact in SR you are not always being attacked, DoT builds with enough DoT duration can kite those enemies when the debuff is triggered without losing much damage output.

This should mean that Chain of Anguish fits DoT builds with good mobility well but on other builds it’s not so good. However, situations are somehow beyond our imagination.

Let’s take a look at some examples:

1. Octavius SnB Paladin:

GT link: Paladin, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.7) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
Video link: 恐怖黎明 PTR 1.1.9.8 (4月20日版本) 奥套帕拉丁
Performance: 5:03, no buff potion, no short rooms. Avg. 6:10 in a 3-in-row.

Very tanky build. SR efficiency is also very good. Not expensive. Rewind Fate (granted by Azrakaa’s Sands) is hardly triggered.

2. Markovian RF Warlord:
   GT link: Warlord, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.7) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
   Video link: 【恐怖黎明1198测试服】马套领主3分48秒速刷
   Performance: 3:48 the fixed layout.

Almost catch up with the 1.1.9.7 Octavius RF WL. Please note that this is not a DoT-focused build.

3. Another Markovian RF Warlord:
   GT link: Warlord, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
   Video link: 恐怖黎明1.1.98 战争领主 马套闪击【版本答案，暴走要塞】_游戏攻略
   Performance: 5:33, no buff potion, no short rooms.

These are not all examples but they are typical, so I picked them.

None of the examples listed is DoT build who flys kites, but they can still take the advantage of Chain of Anguish and ignore its debuff.

The reasons we discussed are:

1. After so many patches, the average SR clear time of all builds is shortened a lot. There are a lot of builds of 6:30ish clear time, which means about 40s for a shard or a boss room. They can trigger the debuff at the beginning of each shard and spend the 8s on pulling other enemies.
2. After so many patches of buffing surviability and damage, the debuff seems not hurting too much.

In our opinion, Chain of Anguish is designed to be a gameble of both high benefit and high risk, and by studying how to use it smartly, we think it should have fit DoT builds but hardly other builds. Now its risk is not enough and thus it fits too many builds in SR.

We also have some ideas for developer as references. (Sorted by importance, from high to low)

1. Adjust the debuff CD and duration synchronously. For example, shorten the CD to 25s and the duration to 5s. This can simply break the 40s-per-shard rhythm while have little influence on true DoT builds, or even buff true DoT builds, because 5s DoT duration is much easier than 8s DoT duration.
2. Increase the crit damage on the belt and the damage penalty on the debuff. Lower damage during the debuff also decreses healing from LS. This is raising the benefit and risk at the same time and encourge true DoT builds to use this belt while stop other builds from abusing it.

Thanks for reading. Your ideas and feedbacks are welcomed.

[afanasenkov26]

probably I don’t get sth but it’d be nice to clarify, what “true dot build” means and what builds can be considered so.
for me, the only “true” DoT in this game is bleed but it has its belt slot occupied and already suffers from poor sustain.

[anon94264551]

@afanasenkov26

what “true dot build” means and what builds can be considered so.

Well, we mean the builds which deal heavy DoT damage and relatively low straight damage, and move to another place to fight other enemies, and then come back to pick up essence. They don’t stand at one place but move around. For example, Grey Knight 1H trauma FW. Bleed builds are definately “true DoT” builds.

In fact, we just want to exclude those who stand at one place and fight to death and heavily rely on LS.

[afanasenkov26]

okay, I got it.
tho I still quite struggle to see how any belt changes can be helpful to those “true DoT” builds. I haven’t played a lot of phys builds but they can most likely afford themselves enduring the proc, but bleed builds are at the lower end of sustaining in-game already even despite multiple mitigation mechanics and heal procs etc. moreover, the belt slot for Bleed is taken by Lacerator (very good belt with strong proc) or probably Guthook in some rare occasions. and Anguish in this case may add even more risk to an already risky gameplay.
speaking about other damage types, I don’t see any heavily DoT-related builds: vit decay is like a subproduct of vit damage, poison is semi-working but not too great, ele dots are somewhere in the middle, frostburn probably being the strongest.

[mad_lee]

@anon94264551 I used your guys tech to create a perfect Chains of Anguish Warlord that has very similiar dot damage and very respectable direct damage and can facetank Ravager (without pharma) and Callagadra (with pharma). Belt is indeed more than workable solution in those kinds of builds.

Here is the build (at the bottom of the op)

Don’t really know what to do with the belt. If you nerf it too much it becomes useless. And so far it’s only useful for high phys res high armor physical builds and it only really shines in SR 75-76.

[MergosWetNurse]

@mad_lee

If you nerf it too much it becomes useless. And so far it’s only useful for high phys res high armor physical builds and it only really shines in SR 75-76.

The belt is fine as is IMO if it only benefits a handfull of builds.
If that belt would be close to BiS/too good for most builds tho… well… that would be a different topic.

[Foehammer]

@MergosWetNurse

The belt is fine as is IMO if it only benefits a handfull of builds.

And a rather….niche play style. Honestly I bet the devs are glad that this meme of a belt works in some situations lol.

[anon94264551]

@MergosWetNurse

it only benefits a handfull of builds

Unfortunately they are among the most powerful ones and there has been a trend of abusing on physical builds, no matter whether they are DoT or not, at least in our Chinese community, where we focus more on SR 75-76 rather than CR.

@mad_lee

If you nerf it too much it becomes useless. And so far it’s only useful for high phys res high armor physical builds

This is what this thread for. Like I said at the very beginning, I’m not calling for a nerf.

What should I say about the debuff? Like you said in your thread, it’s only useful for high phys res/high armor physical builds, who doesn’t really care about a small bit of tankiness lose. The result is, these builds are performing also very high damage, without being dangerous. It’s kinda off the beam, which should have been “high benefit and high risk at the same time”, IMO.

My personal idea is continuing raise its benefit and risk, but in the aspect of damage rather than % resist. We conclude that these builds are all relying on LS to heal, so increase its damage penalty on the debuff can make it more “risky”, and as a compensation, its crit damage/% all damage can be increased correspondingly.

I believe the belt was not designed only for physical builds because there are % all damage rather than % physical/truama damage. Let’s even cut the physical resist penalty a bit to make it fit more builds other than high phys res/high armor physical builds.

@afanasenkov26

tho I still quite struggle to see how any belt changes can be helpful to those “true DoT” builds.

IMO, Higher crit damage will help DoT, while higher damage penalty on the proc doesn’t affect already dealt DoT.

@afanasenkov26

frostburn probably being the strongest.

Frostburn is good, in v1.1.9.8 tons of % frostburn damage is added. Hagarrad works better.

[mad_lee]

@anon94264551

Unfortunately they are among the most powerful ones

None of them made into our top20 tho, they are strong, but not the best ones as they mostly excel in one farming route.

@anon94264551

My personal idea is continuing raise its benefit and risk, but in the aspect of damage rather than % resist. We conclude that these builds are all relying on LS to heal, so increase its damage penalty on the debuff can make it more “risky”, and as a compensation, its crit damage/% all damage can be increased correspondingly.

I believe the belt was not designed only for physical builds because there are % all damage rather than % physical/truama damage. Let’s even cut the physical resist penalty a bit to make it fit more builds other than high phys res/high armor physical builds.

I am not sure, maybe debuff should also include total speed (but not like 30%, maybe 20%)?

[anon94264551]

@mad_lee

but not the best ones as they mostly excel in one farming route.

My bad. I should say, “among the best SR farmers”.

@mad_lee

include total speed (but not like 30%, maybe 20%)

I am not sure if total speed is a good idea. According to the examples I listed, they don’t seem to heavily rely on AS or CS, because they have a lot of CD skills to deal damage, such as Blitz, Kalastor, StormTitan/Amatok Rune.

Also moving speed is another issue. A warlord has 3 mobility skills so that it doesn’t really care about a temporary MS loss, while thoes builds with only 1 mobility skills definately suffer (if they want to use this belt).

[mad_lee]

@anon94264551

I am not sure if total speed is a good idea. According to the examples I listed, they don’t seem to heavily rely on AS or CS, because they have a lot of CD skills to deal damage, such as Blitz, Kalastor, StormTitan/Amatok Rune.

Also moving speed is another issue. A warlord has 3 mobility skills so that it doesn’t really care about a temporary MS loss, while thoes builds with only 1 mobility skills definately suffer (if they want to use this belt).

All the skills you have mentioned require casting speed or attack speed. If your speed is low your rotation is going to be slower as well. Plus you might get interrupted with CC more often. It will especially hurt builds that rely on attack speed to leech (like the ones with RF and Shattering Smash).

Movement speed is also important even with three teleports: sometimes you need to do a microadjustment to your position and if you are slowed down it’s just gonna take more time and leave your char in a more vulnerable position.

[anon94264551]

I was not meaning total speed penalty is useless. I mean it may not be a proper way to achieve our goal.

Our goal is:

1. Generally make this belt more comfortable to other builds, especially “true DoT” ones, as a gamebling choice of both high benefit and high risk.
2. Tune its power down a little on these fast physical SR farmers.

Total speed penalty is definately tuning these fast physical SR farmers down, but it will probably hurt others more, especially the MS speed to builds of only 1 mobility skill.

[mad_lee]

@anon94264551

Generally make this belt more comfortable to other builds, especially “true DoT” ones, as a gamebling choice of both high benefit and high risk.

@anon94264551

Total speed penalty is definately tuning these fast physical SR farmers down, but it will probably hurt others more, especially the MS speed to builds of only 1 mobility skill.

That’s the thing tho. This belt’s penalty is often crippling to a lot of non-physical builds because they can’t afford the minus phys res debuff.
Plus Bleeding builds are in general behind the meta and they have their own niche belts like Lacerator (absolutely essential because of its damage reduction proc). And +1 to all skills and a bit of OA/crit/speeds is not gonna be a game changer for those Bleeders, but losing Lacerator Girdle will be.
I dunno what other builds can benefit from it other than like really really beefy melee builds that have 40+ physical resist and enough elemental overcaps. But then again, Pierce melees have enough OA and Speeds and leech, Cold melees have enough of it too and usually can’t afford the debuff.
I really can’t think of the other niche for the Anguish belt except for those semi-Octavius semi-DoT SR speed farmers.

[anon94264551]

@mad_lee

. This belt’s penalty is often crippling to a lot of non-physical builds because they can’t afford the minus phys res debuff.

This is why I said, “Let’s even cut the physical resist penalty a bit to make it fit more builds other than high phys res/high armor physical builds.”

@mad_lee

I really can’t think of the other niche for the Anguish belt except for those semi-Octavius semi-DoT SR speed farmers.

In fact there happens to be some:

1. Blazerush Elementalist: Elementalist, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
   【视频】娱乐向6000AO震荡大地 满屏红字暴击，2秒一个复仇【恐怖黎明吧】_百度贴吧
   Blazerush Elementalist needs +1 to all skills, very high OA and good crit damage.
   Might of the Bear is also providing good physical res.
2. Full-Octavius “true DoT” truama FW WL: Warlord, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
   https://tieba.baidu.com/p/8129024300
3. Grey Knight “true DoT” truama FW WL: Warlord, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
   【视频】【1.1.9.6】单手创伤波领主 V2 5分07秒碎境速刷【恐怖黎明吧】_百度贴吧

Now that you mentioned 40+ physical resist so many times, then let me say my opinion: physical resist is a good thing, but it’s not as important as you think. We have some “physical-immune” paper tiger like this:

• Deceiver, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.1) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
  【视频】物免脆皮鸡【恐怖黎明吧】_百度贴吧

and also some 7-physical-resist who can also finish SR 75-76 in 10 min ：

• Templar, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.5) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
  【视频】【1.1.9.5】酸毁灭圣殿 7物抗爆杀碎境【恐怖黎明吧】_百度贴吧

Also I have a 32 physical res and 2400 armor build myself which is super tanky and tankier than the over-50%-physical-res builds listed above:

• Mage Hunter, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.7) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
  恐怖黎明 PTR 1.1.9.8 (4月7日版本) 冰卡里多法师猎人_哔哩哔哩bilibili

See, high physical res is a good thing but not a must. In most cases in SR, being hit less, healing (whatever the form), and damage absorption are more important than physical res.

[mad_lee]

@anon94264551

This is why I said, “Let’s even cut the physical resist penalty a bit to make it fit more builds other than high phys res/high armor physical builds.”

I am not against it, I am just not sure how to balance this one Epic item.

@anon94264551

Now that you mentioned 40+ physical resist so many times, then let me say my opinion: physical resist is a good thing, but it’s not as important as you think.

I think I have made enough top-tier builds so you can trust that I know how much exactly physical resist is needed and when. Examples you gave me are absolute memes, by the way, and the way you guy overuse Titan Platings on low armor builds is a waste of a component slot.

Obviously your character defense comprises of many things, it’s just with physical resist going below a certain number (given that your other defenses are in order) your build becomes too vulnerable to heavy physical hits.

[afanasenkov26]

@anon94264551

Blazerush Elementalist: Elementalist, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
【视频】娱乐向6000AO震荡大地 满屏红字暴击，2秒一个复仇【恐怖黎明吧】_百度贴吧
Blazerush Elementalist needs +1 to all skills, very high OA and good crit damage.

I’d dare to say that I recently made and posted a bit more … balanced version of Blazerush, and it does very well w/o Anguish belt.

[anon94264551]

@mad_lee

top-tier builds

Please forget about your tier because we have different criteria. This difference is not between you and I, or you and banana_peel, or anything like these. It’s between your GD community and mine. So let’s not use your or my tier rank as a evidence, plz.

@mad_lee

heavy physical hits

Heavy phsical hits are very very few in SR tho. We don’t farm Ravager and Calla everyday, do we?

@afanasenkov26

w/o Anguish belt.

I don’t mean that Anguish belt is a must in this situation. I mean it’s just working fine with this Elementalist and the build can also afford the Anguish Debuff.

@mad_lee

so you can trust that I know how much exactly physical resist is needed and when.

I don’t doubt your profession. And please trust me that I’ve done hunreds (maybe more than 1000) of SR runs with Anguish belt and I know at least the right direction if there is going to be some changes.

Like I said in the OP, the most important suggestion is simply adjusting the debuff CD and duration synchronously, then it comes to more crit damage and more damage penalty. As for specific values, we could start with 25s/5s, 18% crit damage/ 33% penalty, and adjust these values based on further feedbacks in the next PTR.

[Dioarchet]

I just wanted to point out that there is one other use case for CoA, and that is a build where 100% of damage or debuffs originates from pets or player pets. Such a build will never proc the proc on CoA. Extremely niche, I know, and this is not going to affect anyone’s opinions about buffs or nerfs or whatever. But it’s some interesting trivia.

[mad_lee]

@anon94264551

Heavy phsical hits are very very few in SR tho. We don’t farm Ravager and Calla everyday, do we?

But then why do you guys use Titan Platings so much? One of the most useless pound for pound components.

@anon94264551

Please forget about your tier because we have different criteria. This difference is not between you and I, or you and banana_peel, or anything like these. It’s between your GD community and mine. So let’s not use your or my tier rank as a evidence, plz.

In a spirit of friendly competion I offer you to compare our notes, in other words, to compare the best builds from our community and yours. I believe that our top20 builds are trully the best and our min-maxing methods are as optimal as they go, because they were born from constant knowledge exchange and mutual feedback, in other words, we were sharing our experience and helping each other out. Top20 was trullly a consensus between the very best builders who together have like tens of thousands of hours of making builds. I have tried one of your best builds (remember that argument with banana in a similiar thread earlier?) and it was pretty good. But it was not as good as the builds from our top20. It had some flaws. And I see flaws in the builds you guys make. Even for your goals (fastest SR 75-76 runs) they are not 100% optimally min-maxed. But maybe I am wrong and maybe you can prove me by giving us your stuff for tests while testing our stuff and comparing it. Again, all in a spirit of friendly competition and knowledge sharing. Let me know.

[anon94264551]

@mad_lee

But then why do you guys use Titan Platings so much?

This is in fact a prejudice. We use titan platings mostly for its Pierce Resist and reflected damage reduction. The 12% Armor is never our first concern.

We are never of poorer knowledge. Like I said, it’s just different criteria. Our main focus is SR and we don’t always take a fridge of potions during either testing and farming, so we forces ourselves to have at least 35% res overcap (30% for pierce and chaos, and 40% for aether) to face all situations. And we don’t have buffs and towers so we also forces a 3000 OA in most cases. You guys are just guarantee 15%, or simply reach the cap, because you guys care about CR the first and their could be towers and buffs. You think your builds are better, and that’s imo because you can put the resources that we put in res and OA/DA into damage and solve the problem with potion, buffs or towers. Let alone you guys haven’t break my 3:38 record.

I admit that you guys have experience in CR and you guys make the most of CR mechanism, but focusing on CR and no-potion SR is two totally different thing. You can just force yourselves to have at least 35% res overcap without any potion, buffs nor towers and see how much damage it will lose. Or turn all the potions, buffs and towers down to see how vulnerable it will be.

It’s just different criteria.