Please remove the mobs that turn off your auras

The thing is, as you’ve proven, they are counterable/beatable and their danger can be easily negated. So how can you in one instance criticize GD for having a low skill ceiling (which is debatable in and of itself) and in the same breath criticize attempts to raise that ceiling when you’ve already surpassed it anyways?

Not really inclined to do that. :slight_smile:

While I understand the point you’re trying to make, this comes off as saying that the status quo is inherently better than anything anyone else could possibly suggest and therefore all feedback should simply be silenced. Crate has proven that this is overwhelmingly not the case.

In the same vein, Crate could remove Arcane mobs and the argument could be made to add them back in via mods.

Indeed… that wouldn’t be my point :wink: My point is that if there is a sizable percentage of hardcore players who can’t handle something then you’d think the odds would favor them with at least one person with the moxy and the know-how to mod arcane mobs into something else.

Nothing wrong with feedback (feedback that consists of something more than DURR SHIT DESIGN). Also nothing wrong with modding the game to suit you. DIY baby. Get it done.

Because I don’t agree with the WAY they choose to increase the skill cap. I put this on the same line with the mechanics of every little creature with healing ability able to bring Celestials back to full life in a split second. It makes very little sense to me. It’s more annoying than interesting or challenging in any way. Same thing goes for time based abilities used by bosses. Last night I killed Morgoneth in 5 sec with my top farmer. I was pissed! Felt cheated upon. Robbed of fun and excitement. So what, to fix this devs should put 10 arcane mobs around him?
There are better ways to increase the skill cap and i’d be more than happy to provide a list, if anyone really cared…

And we’re having this conversation because the other side of the aisle ( :wave: ) fails to understand why you feel so.

Like Arcanes, this can be very easily countered not just with better gameplay but even with better statting. Skill Disruption keeps healers from healing and most healing mobs generally have a particular model/aura about them to separate them from others.

This, to me, makes me begin to believe that you view target priority not as a measure of skill but as a nuisance if it’s as much of a necessity as it is with healers or Arcanes.

This isn’t to argue that the potency of higher-priority targets can’t get out of wack. Back in the day, Skeletal Warlocks were the most disastrously high-priority targets. This was for two reasons: their sigils used to do a lot of damage and their slows would stack and slow players to a crawl. Obviously this is no longer the case, thus being indicative that just because something can be countered doesn’t mean the lack of such a counter being employed justifies the power that that something levies against players.

But I’d argue that healers levy an appropriate volume of power against players and Arcanes possess only somewhat more still. Arcanes, however, punish mistakes whereas healers are a somewhat more “passive” danger.

No, they should increase his HP and up the threshold at which his enrage triggers.

I care. :smiley:

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I’d imagine that what usually happens right after is a series of expletives muttered under one’s breath, as the individual gropes around the cupboard for a towel in the dark.

Again.

This is speculative.

I personally wouldn’t know anything about this. :angel:

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But that’s not the point. I KNOW how to counter all that nuisance, but I find having to kill every last stray dog near Korvaan Sands riftgate before engaging Callagadra to be extremely annoying. Doable? Yes! But why? Want her to be able to heal, add summons that heal her, so that we target them as those skeleton priests. Could be a better solution imo.

Still the case for me, as I’ve developed hatred for these and the priests, so that I always eliminate them first no matter what lol

As for Morgoneth, even if you double his HP, I’ll still eliminate him in under 10sec, not enough time for any serious damage to come my way especially given that most our defensive procs would be up for the whole time. This needs more thinking

Well, like you said… you used your “top-farmer”. You are getting what you advertised there. Can’t really complain about it imo. If your build is that OP then you get what you get.

I dunno mate. I think there’s a pretty high skill cap insofar as speed crucibles are concerned.

Yes and no…sometimes heals get in the way. That’s the thing I hate most.

The combination of arcane mobs, with healers capable of healing a target from outside the screen.

The thing which bothers me the most about arcane heroes isn’t the fact that they exist, moreso that they are literally indistinguishable from everything else.

I’m afraid we’ll have to disagree, Norzan. No disrespect intended.

When your screen is literally a kaleidoscope of explosions and milling bodies, it’s impossible spot their purple nullifying missiles, and harder still to notice their very subtle (but very iconic) “hadouken” casting animation.

IMO, crate should make arcane heroes stick out like a sore thumb to actually allow for strategic playing.

But that seems unlikely to happen. Thankfully Glockengerda okay’ed my request to add a filter for arcane mobs in Grim Internals.

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Right, I forgot about crucible and your favourite cooldown based glassy builds. Hey, not everyone pushes the envelope the way you do, mate! :sunglasses:

TL;DR - it’s not as simple as this mate.

This assumes that you first engage the healers.

It’s an open secret that I’ve been tinkering about with HC theorycrafting.

I actually plan to release two guides by the end of this week - @contragor There’s a FoI magehunter I managed 7x consecutive naked clears in HC gladiator. I think you’ll like it.

In lieu of the above, I’ve taken to testing my HC specs in SR, since it seems that that’s what will benefit the HC community the most.

What a month’s worth of testing has taught me about SR is this: Dashing into a mob to make short work of them works 99% of the time, but it’s also the surest way to get yourself killed because of arcane/healer mob combos.

Caution dictates that you first check surrounding mobs for healers before actually engaging.

As a legit, self found, hardcore player - I couldn’t agree with Contragor more.

I suspect that if Crate could easily do so, they would do as has been suggested and make Arcane mobs simply disable buffs for X seconds, rather than dispel. I suspect the effort (code changes) required to make the change is not worth it effort in their opinion.

If I’m not mistaken, Arcane dispel effects do not occur in Crucible, which I think is a very good thing. I’m not sure the reason why though. Was it a balance decision? Or was it something like preventing Tribute buffs from being dispelled? Knowing the motivation for Crucible not dispelling would help argue one way or the other for SR, I think.

I am torn on this topic. Like Contragor, I think Arcane mobs in SR are fine in softcore, because they definitely spice things and up and contribute to the randomness of SR; but mainly because the penalty is infinitely less in softcore. But for hardcore, Arcane mobs actively discourage me from pushing SR. I can’t say the same thing for any other in game effect.

I will also mention that most problems/debuffs in the game can be countered in some way via preparation. You know some mobs are going to lower your resists, so you overcap resists. Freeze can be countered with freeze resist, slow with slow resist, etc. Armor does well against multiple sources of physical damage. Reflected damage can be reduced. And so on. But for the arcane dispel, the only counter is to not get hit by dispel. It’s purely skill based - except due to the randomness of SR, there will be times when no amount of skill can prevent the debuff. I’ve seen people say they make builds that don’t rely on buffs. First, that tremendously limits build diversity (which I see as bad) and again, as Contragor said, pushing high levels of SR requires pharma so even builds which use passives/gear instead of auras are going to feel the pain. And again, consumables being temporarily disabled for say 10 seconds, but then coming back on, would be so much better than losing all the time you spent farming to make those crucibles for a special night of pushing SR with your hardcore char.

I don’t think Arcane mobs are “crap design”. I think the idea of dispelling buffs is a good design, implemented poorly. if they disabled all buffs for X seconds, and there were ways to reduce the duration of the dispel (similar to reducing reflected damage), I’d applaud Arcane heroes as unique, interesting challenges, similar to Reflect heroes.

As a hardcore player, it really does stand out as something different from the rest of the game, which I would consider brutal, but very, very fair in general (hence my love of Grim Dawn).

Just like Contragor said, I shrug and move on, because I don’t see it changing. But wanted to throw my voice in.

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@slanter: Use Grim Internals!

I might. Don’t laugh, but I have a desire (perhaps irrational) to avoid Grim Internals. I’ve never used it. I think the reason is I would see it as sort of like pausing the game/quitting out when your hardcore char is about to die.

Playing legit hardcore in Grim Dawn requires the discipline to not cheat when your char dies (since it’s so easy to use third party tools to resurrect). Using Grim Internals feels, to me, slightly like cheating. It’s the same reason I don’t use GDStash at all, even to theorycraft, or just to increase stash space.

At the end of the day, I want the vanilla game to be fair, and I guess I’m saying, Arcane mobs in SR are unfair for hardcore chars. I don’t feel that way about anything else in the game. And I wouldn’t feel that way if the dispel was temporary.

I’ll also mention I play exclusively with a gamepad controller. I mention this because I can’t help but think … what if I was a legit hardcore Xbox player, when the Xbox version is released? This is another reason to address the issue in vanilla, IMO.

I might still try it. I’ll feel dirty if I do though. Irrational - but I think it’s tied to the same reason I play hardcore in the first place.

If there was a way to use Grim Internals and the only thing it did was make arcane dispel temporary, I’d be sorely tempted to use it. But Grim Internals adds a lot of features which make the game easier, I think? I confess, I’ve never used it. I guess my assumption is that the devs balance the game around vanilla, not vanilla + grim internals. Just having the info GI provides (such as which debuffs an enemy has on them) is an advantage which makes the game easier - I think that is an objective statement. Gray area, I know.

All that said, much respect to the GI developer (and Dammit/Grimtools and obviously Crate themselves) for their software chops.

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Of course not. I can understand/respect this. GI is, after all, a third party tool, and will rob you of that purist experience.

Agreed, but crate has made it abundantly clear that the game was never intended to be balanced around HC.

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not telling you to “suffer in silencee,” because (as I’ve mentioned before) there IS a lack of balance for HC players. So feel free to voice your frustration, or to rant/vent, whatever.

Just remember that - and I’m not suggesting that you are - you can’t blame anyone for this frustration.

P.S: If it’s any consolation, all the filter does is add the name of arcane enemies above their health bar.

Well, you know what my Problem with this whole #ButThinkOfTheHardcorePlease Argument is:
The Core-Idea of Hack’n’Slay was never build around that, rather the opposite. The Reason why Diablo Games exist in this form at this days and age, and why it’ve become so popular was never like their Origins of DungeonCrawlers and Roguelikes did permadeath you and you need to start over, but rather because Blizzard wanted to have an more Actionpaced and Consistent Experience plus Multiplayer Support / Emphasis. Hardcore is thrown into it as a nice addition for “extra-challenge”, and while i wish you all HC Fans fun with the mode, you deserve it, it really bugs me that we starting here an Argument about an additional Extra-(Fun-)Mode which never was or should be the Focus here. Should Crate now f*** over all SC Players for the sake of HC? Wow what a great idea.

And now before people begin to nagging “but hey they could balance them seperatly, it’s only Arcane Heroes”…
Well SURE they should, now it’s Arcane Heroes, next is Shattered Realm, than Crucible, than stuff in the Base Game etc etc etc… and then they have actually to balance two seperate Games… that sounds promising. And if we are at it, why not do a extra Balance for PvP… we need to cater towards this Audience as well and the Multiplayercrowd still deserves its crate.net with dedicated servers. And in the end HC will be only a shell of itself…

I mean comeon PLEASE… a mode which started out to add an extra permadeath to the Base-Game will no threated as a major mode which should be considered too.

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If you pay attention, this topic, like many other similar threads, was started by a SC player. We just added our input to the thing as we experience the same annoying mechanic in HC. Nobody is asking for some kind of special treatment. I know you don’t care about HC. That’s your problem lol, as you are depriving yourself of a lot of fun.
So, again, we haven’t started this thread. And the fact that SC players complain about arcane mobs, should at least encourage the devs to think about it some more. Maybe it’s not such a great idea after all.

First, Diablo was in fact inspired by rogue likes. I am old enough that I played those roguelike before Diablo was released. Source: https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/268507/20_years_later_David_Brevik_shares_the_story_of_making_Diablo.php

From the article:

The original concept for Diablo , says Brevik, was more of a traditional party-based RPG, turn-based and heavily influenced by his early love of games like Rogue and Nethack .

It is not clear it hardcore (perma death) was added based on those or not. But I’d say whether or not hardcore mode in ARGPs stems from early rogue-likes is irrelevant to this topic.

Also, I’m not sure how my request (Arcane mobs dispel buffs temporarily, say for 10 seconds, rather than permanently) would “f*** over softcore players”.

Third, I’m not advocating making changes specific to hardcore. If I could wave a magic wand, Arcane mobs would dispel temporarily in both hard and soft core.

Fourth, even if others do advocate to make changes specific to hardcore, it is a slipper slope fallacy to argue that it will to a never ending slew of changes specific to hardcore.

Here is my beef: Hardcore has been in the game since i started playing (after original release but before Ashes of Malmouth). I feel that SR was a major, if not the major feature, of the last expansion (Forgotten Gods). And I feel that SR offers much less content to hardcore players, than to softcore; and Arcane heroes are a large reason why. When I say offers less content - let me clarify. Obviously, if you are good/lucky enough in hardcore, you could theoretically push as far as softcore. But in reality, the records for highest SR levels will always be softcore because you can die with virtually
no penalty (you just go back to where you were!)

Compare to Crucible, where HC characters can and do complete wave 170.

And I want to clarify something:

I am not that frustrated. I am (as I said, I think) simply agreeing with Contragor and giving my opinion. Both Contragor and I agree that despite anything we say here, Crate is not going to change anything. I am not advocating for change because I don’t think anything will change. I am merely expressing my opinion on a game which I happen to love. That is to say, I am not expecting, or even hoping, for any change as a result of this thread. I just wanted to participate in the discussion and share my opinion. I’ll admit I feel defensive because Yu - the format of your post feels aggressive and condescending to me. Maybe I am misreading (it is text after all) but statements like “Wow what a great idea” come across as rude, to me.

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I never intended my post to be “feedback” , it was just a post i made out of frustration with the game.

I’m new to this game, and i’m enjoying it a lot , would love to play it between PoE seasons, but i HATE bullshit. (i’ll keep playing but probably stay out of SR)

I’ve gone through this kind of thing with PoE before, trying to level a melee build to 100 with volatiles doing instant damage for over 10k was quite the experience, not a fun one :slight_smile:.

And one final thing, the 2 reasons i didn’t even attempt to make a good post:

1 - This 100% had to be done before and got ignored.

2- I’m new in the forum and while i was searching in some threads i saw this “Zantai dev” replying in a unprofessional manner instead of trying to have a discussion or helping, he seems to like trollling people . So i was discouraged from trying to make a serious post for people to give their opinions etc.

Sorry if i wasted people’s time with my rage vent, and also sorry for my garbage english.

Nothing to apologize for mate. <3

He only responds in kind to how others respond. Professionalism has little to do with it. I, for one, fully support his choice to not lie down like a dog and take bullshit from people who then expect him to pretend it never happened while they get to go on acting like children.

However, remember - if you DO want to give actual, real feedback then do so and read this: