Return 5% crit to Dying God or RIOT

If you’re Ritualist your build probably will not be nerfed.You lose crit and uptime,but will gain some bonus vitality damage.

Well, WitchingHour and Voidwhisper rings got buffed. Obviously DG had to be nerfed, ppl.

No, I am not being serious. Just incase you, the person reading this couldn’t tell. Also stop reading spoilers!

Ok, I think I need things explained to me, because I don’t understand some of you veterans anymore…

Two things about the nerf :

  • Dying God was spoken of inside sir spanksalot topic : “Devotions : A how-to-maximize them”. In this topic, it was pointed out that Dying God was really good and taken in many cases by not-Chaos/not-Vitality builds, Lightning and Aether builds in particular, and I quote :

Ok, now I know that not everybody will scour the entirety of the forum and read every single topic, but I saw a couple people there, and I see them here, and they didn’t say much then, and are riotting in this topic right now. :smiley:

  • secondly, we’re mainly talking about 5% Crit damage nerf, right? There’s also duration, but main complains seem to go toward 5% Crit damage nerf. And here I just want to ask…how much of a nerf is this, mathematically speaking? I mean, if it was 5% crit chance, yeah, I could understand, but 5% crit damage…even if I have a raw grasp at the fact that you get more and more juicy crit multipliers the more you stack OA…5% crit damage seem like a quite tame dps-loss, it’ll definitely be less than 5% less dps, right?

I think the real question is rather to see if the +% in Chaos and Vitality damage makes up for that loss. In substance, I think that if we should riot, it should be for moar %Chaos/Vit damage, typed damage, rather than general-untyped damage buffs. And preferably after some testing on Chaos/Vit builds.

Dying god is a Chaos/Vitality constellation. It shouldn’t be a reflex pick for builds that happen to have the correct affinities, it should be a choice “do I pick Dying God, despite the fact that it doesn’t match my damage types, or do I invest in more defense, or in a T2 constellation of my damage type?”

Pointing out that Chaos is a weak damage type is fair game, quoting examples and personal experiences would be in the range of what Z asks for feedback.

But I do think you guys are complaining about the wrong thing. Imho, it’s not “this shouldn’t be nerfed”, but rather “it should be changed this way instead, because it impacts the wrong target, the numbers are off, blablablabla”.
So prepare your Chaos/Vitality builds for some testing post-patch! And if it’s another build that is impacted, could be nice to explain why, who knows, could lead Z to see where buffs are warranted.

:slight_smile: What a great time to be alive… I mean to be dead like… you know


The riot is justified. A primarily chaos/vit T3 constellation (which is also the only decent chaos t3 devotion) has been heavily nerfed to stop non-vit/chaos, but vit/chaos received an unnecessary and large nerf. Given that chaos has been a weaker damage type in this game for years it was a poorly designed rebalance imo. Additionally other weaker T3 like leviathan have gotten buffs in recent times so DG nerfs of this degree are simply not needed.

Chaos/vit got +86% chaos/vit damage. When players already have approx x24 damage multiplier at end-game the difference between x24 and x24.86 is an overall damage gain of 3.6% (on chaos harbinger this will be less). So chaos/vit get a 3.6% boost during the dying god power but this reduced by the crit nerf (impact depends on crit and crit rate but it can be a similar 3%+ loss in low crit scenario I think). So overall chaos/vit get minor damage gain or loss but with a 20% less duration.

In order to compensate for the duration loss +% chaos should have been changed to around +550% chaos/vit (375x1.2 + more for crit loss) , this of course assumes players need the full 20 second duration which is not always true. Still, the duration loss deserves a lot more compensation than we got; it is a straight-up nerf for content like crucible and SR where the duration really matters.

This is the case.

And even if you assume you have 3000% vit or chaos damage, or even more, the new one gives higher average dps for vit/chaos builds, that’s assuming you have 25% crit chance which is unlikely against anything that doesn’t die right away regardless! And the current version looses even more advantage the higher crit damage you get, i assumed 80% additional only. It’s actually an over time boost if you are looking at the tradeoff for crit dmg vs increased damage only.

That’s right, it’s not an average dps nerf, but a boost, so the only thing nerfed in that regard is non chaos-vit. You gain almost 1.5 times the dps you lose. Probably even more(2x++) in a real case of a hard enemy and average proc uptimes are accounted for.

DG is taken by everyone!

This is an uneducated overstatement. Afaik the only op non-chaos/vit builds that would take DG were binders and cold N&O. Both are dead. This is prehistory.

But maybe I missed something. Can anyone point out any overpowered builds using Dying God in FG? Even including chaos and vitality?

Sorry, what? That dmg boost doesn’t even make up for the uptime nerf alone. Not to mention the crit dmg nerf. Not to mention that now you need a good proccer skill for DG not to lose even more uptime.

DG nerf = chaos nerf. The weakest dmg type is being nerfed - for unknown reasons - and some people are still like “Oh, good job, Crate! Because everyone takes Dying God!”

I think the change can still be useful to shift power away from the crit into chaos and vit. The power is more chaos/vit oriented and it prevents the DG on non-vit/chaos scenario from occurring again in the future.

The problem was the duration nerf was not taken into account at all when the +% was increased. The result was chaos/vit got nerfed unnecessarily hard rather than protected (and the first crit reduction never saw chaos/vit compensated either iirc).

Thank you, that is what I think should be tested and examined. Not the crit damage, but the proc duration, and the amount of +% damage given. Transfer general stat power to specific damage type. Really, the topic should be “remove duration nerf” rather than “remove crit nerf”, would make much more sense.

If you noticed what i wrote, i mentioned that if you look at the crit damage nerf only. As the thread was about, as well as the comment i was answering.

All those who gain power are afraid to lose it. The hardest thing to do is stay neutral when it affects your own sources of power. The op talking about the crit % nerf reveals to me this is an emotional response, op loves big crit damage.

No wonder it was so desired by so many, it was extremely powerful with a great uptime that most devotions/damage-types could only dream of. So in that sense talking about uptime, i find it hard to disagree with the reasoning behind the nerfs. Not only is this whole devotion absolutely insane, but even after uptime nerfs it has a strong proc chance and good uptime. But my post was about all this talk of crit % vs the increased %.

You wanna talk about vision? Here is some, instead of just having no support for a damage type(vast overstatement) and then giving it insanely overpowered devotions or a few sources to make up for everything, it is a much greater thing to spread it out over full itemization and skills balanced and to work towards that goal. Can you imagine, those of us who understand this nerf have this type of logic behind it? Also it impacts vitality also, which has great support in all ways the few times i had to craft those builds. This is why it is better to seek for appropriate balance among devotions, skill/item setups rather than making single things mega powered as a patch up because it affects a lot and comes with a lot of other negative externalities like making it harder to balance damage types and itemization if they are not upheld to a similar standard.

Therefore, if you find chaos and vit unsupported by items/skills, maybe you should address that. Or maybe you should start talking about the damage types that are way out of line, making other types look much lesser. The powercreep that is going with some skills damage types and classes, and people want others to creep to same level, soon only SR/crucible is relevant unless you just wanna lol around no risk.

I can see where you are coming from, and chaos is generally my favorite types in game, and i haven’t found a build with it here i wanted to play. Occultist needs an overhaul in my opinion, it is my favorite class but i find it hard to make a cool and powerful occultist, think the closer to the feeling i could get was almost 0 cooldown doom bolter, but i can’t remember if that was chaos or vit. But i find it hard to get angry with attempts to bring choices into balance. Most games neglect such things too much in my eyes. Maybe they hear you, and can work with you all to give more options for chaos choices.

Imo the change to dying god EXCEPT the duration nerf is fine. Pls revert duration nerf Zantai! :slight_smile:

As others have pointed out vit and especially chaos builds aren’t anything OP and none of the chaos builds (beside some meme Doom Bolt spammers) use time dilation. Without time dilation, this nerf hurts the most for builds like tenebris’ chaos EoR, Rah’Zin witchhunters, Rah’Zin+Harbinger Deceiver/Witchblade, Darkblade Pyro. Are these four builds OP? I don’t think so, I would say they are just about right and if anything they have the same problem almost every chaos build has, which is the lack of RR.

Revert the duration nerf on DG and buff chaos RR on witchfire devotion imo. Chaos damage is not OP.

PS: I know the nerf is not supposed to be targeting chaos/vit builds, but rather all other builds that still go for DG. This is also why imo only the duration nerf should be reverted.

So guys riot continues

I had to clarify something before, but I didn’t it. Excuse me, I’m an inexperienced riot-starter.

Let’s find out why DG was real top-tier devo before FG and why it is very situational now. What changed? I would speak about non vit/choas builds. It’s obvious, that vit/chaos builds was hurted hard by CD reduced. This little +% changes nothing, vit/chaos build always have a lot of %dmg.

In one of ya’s topic I showed, that with good OA DG gives ~same dmg, as usual T3 devos, same dmg boost like +200% to all dmg. But only with good OA, and not 100% uptime, and eats your health.

Why it was overpowered before FG? Because: 1) in many situations there was no choice 2) SR didn’t exist, in crucible we could ignore some defence for faster cleartime

It eats your health EVEN THROUGHT MoT, Mirror of Ereoctes, cluster, Inq’s seal etc IN FULL. It interferes with work of constitution while kiting/runnig. I’m not saying that to take DG in SR prohibited or impossible. But very situtional.

SECOND THESIS. In the new condition DG is not needed for most of builds
Let’s get a look on some builds, that used (or could use) DG before FG.
Veretragna’s Deathmarked BM. grimtools
Beautiful devo map with Yugol, Ultos and Amatok.
MadLee’s Harra infil. grimtools
Ultos+full Amatok+ nodes of DG without active. Even with amazing LL from PB he didn’t take full DG.

Melee aether wasn’t oupie before. No need to nerf them.
Valinov’s bonemonger apostate. grimtools
No god, he used Phoenix.
My,John_Smith, Allagast apostate. Could be used with Phoenixfor more safety or with Korvaakfor better dmg.
Aether CT spellbinders still could use DG with Aeon and SoH, but they wasn’t hurted by duration nerf. They aren’t so strong now, so could use Korvaak or Phoenix for safety.

Yes, phys builds used DG sometimesbefore FG, because Oleron is too weak.
Now they use combinations of Azraaka, Empirion, Ulzaad. For example:
MadLee’s Warborn DK grimtools or Sir Spanksalot’s warborn EoR warlord grimtools.
No DG there.

In general use combo of SoH+Ultos, or Tempest+Ultos.

Fire, Pierce, Poison, Bleeding
Don’t use DG in general

Excluding chaos/vit. 2H BUILDS sometimes, very rarely
Dmt’s classical stormreaver vindi. grimtools Topic was deleted unfortunately.
And my Avenger build, using combo of Aeon, DG and Ulzaad grimtools
2h builds have profit from DG, because AS is difficult to get. BUT 2H BUILDS VERY WEAK NOW!!! Absolutly no need to nerf them even more.

Let’s sum up
Main DG users(who really need it):

  • vitality builds: normal, but not overpowered
  • chaos builds: weak
  • 2h builds: weak

I hope I explained why DG should be returned to pre FG condition.
40% crit, 10% total speed, 20 sec duration, 30 sec cd, +289% to vit/chaos dmg(or more).

If I may, there is only one thing I disagree with regarding the new DG

That is duration. 16 sec is pretty bad. Even on a mega tweaked chaos build with 29% CDR it’s pretty bad.

Everything else i’m fine with, i’d just readjust the sustainability of the devotion

No, you’ve only explained why Crit chance should be changed for more Chaos/Vita damage. Maybe current duration preserved.

If (and only IF) we take your thesis at face value, there are two problems :

  • not enough damage for Chaos/Vit builds => solution is to buff Chaos/Vit-specific stats. More +%damage on Hungering Void, and people have mentioned more Chaos RR on Witchblade constellation, seems like a good idea.
  • not enough damage for 2handed builds => solution is to buff 2handed specific things, like Kraken.

I’d rather you suggest something like 20% Crit damage, 10% total speed, 20 sec duration, 30 sec cooldown, and +500% Chaos/Vit damage rather than “no, change nothing! Change is bad, bad change!”.

I’ll also just want to point out that +86% Chaos/Vit damage when you already have 3000% damage is STILL a 2,7% raw dps upgrade. I’m curious to know what 5% crit damage represent, dps-wise. I doubt it’s 3% total dps, could be wrong, but I’ll need solid math to be convinced.

I’m not against buffing vit/chaos builds. As for chaos, еhis problem requires a comprehensive solution, it’s not only DG problem.
I’m against restrictions on build diversity. I showed, and you could check builds treads - absolutely no need to use DG now, but Crate continue to reduce attractiveness DG for another builds based on irrelevant data.

You want math? I’ll give it to u easy.
Lets compare old 289% 20 sec proc 40% crit vs new 375% 16 sec 30% crit.
Let’s assume that build already have 25 permanent multiplier (absolutely real, and even not maximal). And char deals 1 flat dmg/s
Crit chance 20% and crit multiplier 1.5 permanent wo void. ± real for vit builds. How to calculate total dmg, modified by crit =base_dmg*(crit_chance*(crit_multiplier-1)+1)
Will attack for 20 sec, old build with permanent void new with void and 4 wo
Old. 1*(25+2.89)20(0.2*(1.5+0.4-1)+1)=658.204
New. 1*(25+3.75)16(0.2*(1.5+0.3-1)+1)+1254*(0.2*(1.5-1)+1)=643.6

2.2% dmg loss. And I didn’t calculate that dmg became even lower due to 4 sec -10% total speed.

Lets sum up. Vit/chaos was mostly nerfed or stayed the same. Another builds became less flexible.
This is bad change and should be canceled.

John gave us convincing evidence

it shouldn’t be that hard to calculate. And it’d be even useful, as a 2% damage loss might be something that they write off as a non-consequential change.

(That it hurts people at lower gear levels disproportionately more since a higher portion of their total damage output relies on the devotion is another matter, since barely anyone plays budget/g1-2 enough to provide feedback.)

Given the inherent underperformance of 2H builds, DG was a much needed crutch used by many builds for better attack speed.

Regarding lightning damage, AFAIK:

The reason why DG is best for lightning builds is because you can only pick any 2 of the following 3:

  • Dying God
  • Spear
  • Ultos

Given that many lightning builds use shaman’s stormcaller’s pact, and given the natural wide damage spread of lightning damage, stacking %crit goes a long way to help maintain some semblance of consistency.

This is best explained with an example.

Shaman’s legendary relic - stormcaller’s pact grants 1 - 76 damage.

Having a high %crit value raises this minimum value of ‘1’ while also allowing you to get big massive crits every now and then.

Since the shaman class also specializes in 2H weapons, the total speed of DG is made even more important.

Going on to my opinion as to why DG does not deserve a nerf:

  1. 2H builds seriously need it
  2. With a few exceptions, chaos damage does struggle much more than other classes
  • For example, the only classes which provide chaos RR is demo + inqui. And both of them use the clunkiest debuff mechanics in the game with the former requiring 50 skill points to unlock.
  1. There IS a trade off imposed on non-chaos/vit builds should they go the DG route. You’re giving up ~150% worth of relevant damage type + health degen should you take it.

IMO, if you want to nerf DG because it’s too strong, then you need to make big buffs to 2H builds + chaos damage.

From my perspective, a decent way to is to…

  1. Buff abominable might - seriously. Make it more like ulzaad’s decree
  2. Buff kraken by giving it ~10% more AS.

EDIT: In its current state, abominable might is best used in main campaign, when you can one-shot some scrub monster with a skill you’ve bound to it to activate its buff. Imagine trying to run Abomniable might (a freaking expensive tier 3) in an SR boss room. :smiley:

Little error in your calculation.
Old. 1*(25+2.89)20(0.2*(1.5+0.35-1)+1)=652,626

I could also point out that 20% crit does seem a bit high, and that your calculations suppose no other source of crit damage. But you get my point. I’ll admit, on principle, that it’s a slight nerf. Still, the main reason seems to be the duration nerf, not the crit one.

Suggestion : “New. 1*(25+3.75)20(0.2*(1.5+0.3-1)+1)+1254*(0.2*(1.5-1)+1)=804”

Hence my remark : topic is wrongly named, should be called “Return 20 sec duration to Dying God or riot” :smiley:

Agree completely.

  • 1.1.1 DG is still good for lightning builds and for 2h, so the nerf will hurt those a lot.
  • 2h need a general buff (either via kraken or all 2h augments’ values increased by ~25%)
  • abom chaos proc is currently a meme, +1 to make it like ulzaad (with adjusted values)