[Feedback] Petition to return Fire to Lightning conversion to Cindertouch gloves

This is the real question here. All other things (from both sides, if you want to split up the arguments to sides) are the usual outcry and counter after every patch. :wink:

Big Z. doesn´t have to explain anything to a “why” but here it would be nice to know what was the intention to make this change. Nerf because something got too strong? Buff/Options for other builds because they need something on this spot? Or (and at the moment I see no other explanation though this might change) is it like @Maya said: A “season” thing, so that the builders have something to puzzle (not judging here; thinking about new ways keeps the brain active :smiley: ).

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Maybe it happened because of sharing feedback like this:

Never mind. I’m curious, how exactly could Cindertouch ever be amazing fire gloves? Conversion or not, they got lightning flat, 100% lightning mod, ranks to EoR which is impossible on fire, Wind Devils which is lightning/cold (with Cyclone blocking half the items with lightning to fire and nothing else for fire supporting it), Vindictive which is not a main and CT that is already hardcapped +6 on any CT build (no cast speed for CT either). Basically Cinders have as much to do with fire as Gladiator belt with vitality - they just happen to have %dmg of that type. (Removing the conversion from Gladiator belt because it’s an amazing vitality belt if not for the conversion would not be much different - a signature item of a given dmg type losing its signature feature)

So what makes them amazing fire gloves? Oa? Wyrmbones have the same oa. The proc? Wyrmbones got a decent proc. Proc’s color then. It is red, yes, and to that balancing argument, I must yield. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

Last thing. It a real shame when things lose their signature features for reasons that even lead playtesters cannot explain. People would build for this feature. This bit of conversion - however insignificant some ppl are trying to make it look now - was an integral part of the synergy that made for great builds. It doesn’t matter if it’s 5:30 or 6:10 in Crucible or who has what definition of a dead build as much as it matters that items that served a specific purpose and provided specific synergies are getting stripped of that purpose and those synergies because… we don’t know why. Nor ever we will.

So if you wanted to use them for fire you always could have. Only -20% total dmg on a low roll.

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like what some said, i think sometimes crate wants a patch to be a new season with different metas, to make players (and dev) readjust their builds with the buff/nerf/new items.

about lightning damage, cmiiw, but isn’t lightning damage’s quirk/gimmick is to be the damage with the highest range between min & max damage? maybe that’s why its harder to balance around.

sometimes i wish there’s a button to toggle conversion on & off beside items with conversion stats, so that everyone can be happy. but i dunno if the engine can allow that. and it might reduce build diversity.

The first part is the case but I don’t think it makes it harder to balance. You would still use the mean value as the balancing point and widen the range equally in both directions. Mean dps would be the same. (chaos dmg does this too)

I’m not going to pretend that I know why the gloves lost conversion. What I do know is whining about a single build being “gutted” instead of crafting up new builds in the wake of a massive change like this is silly; Only a single build (mad_lee’s PRM mage hunter) has been posted here and we’re at 60 posts, so if any other builds are “dead” as a result of this conversion they evidently haven’t been brought up here…

Why the obsession with “gloves that have conversion”? I’m sure you can find another way to convert to the damage type you want. Or find an item that supports another build that you want to try.

To be 110% honest this sounds like “a you problem” to me. Power to you if you want to play PRM but, if your PRM build is unplayable to you because of a loss of 25% conversion on one item, it sounds to me like you need to find some alternative gear and/or ideas for your build.

I will concede that the “y’all” was too condescending. Mostly I’m just annoyed with people like you and Lee complaining so heavily about a single item change in the wake of an enormous free update, which seems like turning a molehill into an enormous mountain to me. Rather than yet long QQ thread about #DEDBUILDS, I’d much rather see more builds with the new MIs instead.

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Actually isn’t a single build. Lee’s build is example of it, since Invoker set is split fire/lightning with slightly more fire damage. In order to function well needs the conversion to balance things out. PRM build can’t take new conversion on mask, since head slot is occupied by Spellgaze, which is must for every end game Panetti build.

Also every lightning CT build needs the gloves to convert burn damage from Inferno to Electrocute. This build for example needs it badly…

And CT lightning spam as well. Fire CT have different options for gloves slot btw.

Another build that can use the conversion is Lightning EoR Shieldbreaker. Gloves already have mod to convert EoR damage to lightning, so you can’t use them on any fire build but you need the global conversion to convert fire from Demo’s spells.

Something like this:

And of course lightning Cyclone builds need the conversion as well, like this Vindicator:

The questions why the conversion is lost still remains. And I haven’t seen suggestions for fire builds with these gloves.

Maybe use them in Fire PRM build?

I have already good gloves with cast speed, DA and spirit, no need.

Oh I and lot’s of other players will post builds with the new items, already have a list of builds to try but that again have nothing to do with already existing builds/items.

Btw no wonder lot’s of players don’t post feedback threads, if every time there will be attack squad arguing just for the sport. Feedback threads suggestions are present in these free updates, there are meant to improve the game/QoL/diversity for all! No need every feedback thread to become flame war!

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Of course you could always

"If you have private feedback that you do not wish other users to see or respond to, you can message us!

Please note that while we will read all feedback, we cannot respond to every message. "

https://forums.crateentertainment.com/g/Crate_Employee/activity/posts

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@Xervous made a good point to me in a different thread.

I posted in the 1.1.7 thread that I was in support of the change…BUT I think there was a missed opportunity to explain to the players, that want the change to be reverted, why the change happened in the first place. That part I don’t get.

Instead, there was some reply along the lines of lol #pollresults…when there could have been a simple given reason. Even if the reason was “because I say it should be removed” would been enough as it’s Crate’s game and their design philosophy.

After giving it more thought, I find myself more on the fence of the change…

The solution previously used for the belt situation, and mentioned above, should be applied here…make another pair of gloves that support the request of those who want the changes reversed.

More importantly, again as mentioned above, what was the reason. I mean I get you can’t respond to every question but I can’t imagine the reply wouldn’t take more then a few minutes. I mean you know why…

So the argument of lol you lost 40 secs on CR clear time is weak and I, myself have been guilty of the same train of through.

I don’t go into CR, someone who clears it in 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 minutes or whatever doesn’t affect me. The changes that evolve from fast clear times don’t affect me. Dying or not, all my meme builds clear SR 65 with the timer intact and that’s what matters to me.

In the end, I think those who find this change bad should at least be given some courtesy and a decent reason. Changes will never be popular with all players due to play styles, time, etc. But a short, non tone deaf statement goes a long way to make all players happy if they know why changes occur.

P.S: still hoping for an answer as to why Badge of Mastery does not have Storm Totem as a possible pre/suf, thanks.

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As for why it was changed, maybe the lightning conversion simply didn’t fit the theme? I mean, it’s called Cindertouch, looks lava/fiery, and has a fiery whirlwinds proc. None of that would make one think “this should have fire to lightning conversion”.

The idea to move the conversion to another set of gloves seems like a reasonable solution. As banana_peel suggested, Thundertouch could be a good fit. Another idea might be Dawnshard Grip, the armor has fire to lightning conversion, so it would fit the theme somewhat.

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I think it’s gonna mess all the Mortar builds really badly since most of them are Fire based.

‘Needs’ is a bit strong, don’t you think?

While my build was using Cindertouch too, it has about as much Fire -> Lightning conversion now as yours did before this change.

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Was there any reason why the conversion was removed, other than for the sake of taking a stat from a item, simply for the sake of making it less useful and impacting people that used it for the conversion, and cause a reaction in your playerbase? Was the conversion somehow extremely OP, because it made one or two builds too good? Or are we just going to keep getting snarky replies instead of an explanation that actually justifies this change?

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I am willing to bet that the chances of me making a non-pet / non-rata build is higher than getting non snarky replies :stuck_out_tongue:

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crate’s still going to do patches with gd and adding small new contents occasionally, right? it could be possible that crate wants to add some new items to replace cindertouch’s role, and crate is still in brainstorming phase with it.

with the name cindertouch, one would expect it to be an item with, uh… fiery. nature.

I know this is not a good enough reason to justify the change, but it always bothered me that an item named Cindertouch supported lightning damage more than fire damage. The first time it dropped I was like “Cool! This could be useful for my fire purif-- oh, it converts the fire damage to lightning…”, so… I’m glad for this change for the sake of thematic consistency?

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But then why put so much emphasis on Lightning in the first place?

Maybe a new item would be great, called “Shocking Grasp”. Cut all fire related things and bring in only the conversion. :wink:

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50/50 proves both sides are right and wrong WutFace

Glad the conversion got removed. It was parasitic for hybrid builds.

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Can you give an example of such builds that needed exactly Cindertouch and could not use Wyrmbones?

And so, the discussion goes on but neither we heard the reason why the conversion was removed, nor saw any builds that would benefit from it.
It will be cool if there are arguments.

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