[Mechanics] Global Elemental dmg converted to X now occuring *last* in order (*after* single ele>X)?

[Cinder]

So @sir_spanksalot, @hammyhamster1 and I kind of did an all-nighter on conversion mechanics, yesterday.

Our Case:

• A vitality-focused Blightlord Oppressor with:
  • 50% fire>vitality conversion (Off-Hand)
  • 46% fire>acid conversion (Path of the Three OK exclusive skill)
  • ~50% elemental>vitality conversion (Belt)

Our Issue + Thesis:

* According to the elemental dmg > X conversion order we thought to be true, this conversion process would have gone down as follows (with a fire dmg value of 100 (example) on skill Y):

1. elemental>vitality conversion happens: 100x0.5=50.

2. fire>vitality and fire>acid conversion enter a weighted pool to fight for the remaining 50 fire.

since 50+46 does not exceed 100, we just get another 25 vitality, 23 acid and 2 remaining fire dmg.

No harm, no foul, right?

Wrong. Somehow, there was a dmg loss on the tested skill (RE with +flat fire from BL set) of~10% total vitality dmg that could not be explained by any other reason than conversion.

So where did all that vit dmg go?

Thesis: The solution to this problem is to calculate our ele>vit conversion only after our fire>X conversoin – instead of doing it the other way around. Pretty simple, really – at least in hindsight…

Supporting Evidence for this Thesis:

1. When our fire>X conversion was raised to a minimum of 100% total, all fire dmg on RE disappeared completely (tested separately both with 17/12 Path of the Three [ring] and M. Darkflame Chestguard), meaning that these to had to enter the same weighted pool at some point in the equation .
2. When this 100%+ fire>X conversion was in effect, removing the ele>vit conversion did not change our overall RE damage (exept for a miniscule 24 points at the very end of the +%dmg calculation which likely comes from differing +spirit values on the swapped belts).
3. Furthermore, with very high fire>X conversion (85-95%), the dmg gains from ~50% ele>vit conversion were barely mentionable.

This was also tested and confirmed to happen with M. Pack of Treacherous Means instead of the Lunal’Valgoth’s Girdle.

Pictures of in-game dmg breakdown (fire/ele>X testing)

RE dmg breakdown with 100% fire>X conversion and ~50% ele>vit
[50% fire>acid from 17/12 Path of the Three + 50% fire>vit from Word of Solael off-hand + 50% ele>vit from Lunal’Valgoth’s Girdle]

RE dmg breakdown with 96% fire>X conversion and ~50% ele>vit
[46% fire>acid from 15/12 Path of the Three + 50% fire>vit from Word of Solael off-hand + 50% ele>vit from Lunal’Valgoth’s Girdle]

Indicating that fire>X+fire>X conversion applies additively but fire>X+ele>X conversion applies multiplicatively.

---

RE dmg breakdown with overkill ~135% fire>X conversion and ~50% ele>vit
[35% fire>vit from M. Darkflame Chestguard + 50% fire>acid from Path of the Three + 50% fire>vit from Word of Solael off-hand + 50% ele>vit from Lunal’Valgoth’s Girdle]

RE dmg breakdown with ~135% fire>X conversion and * without* ~50% ele>vit
[35% fire>vit from M. Darkflame Chestguard + 50% fire>acid from Path of the Three + 50% fire>vit from Word of Solael off-hand]

The fact that the acid dmg on RE does not decrease with 50% ele>vit as compared to without (save for 1 single point likely due to slightly different +spirit values on both belts) indicates that the ele>vit conversion does not convert ~50% of all fire dmg to vit before fire>X applies, but rather that it only converts half of the remaining 0% fire damage after fire>vit had its turn.

Because, if this were not the case and elemental>X damage occured first, Path of the Three could only convert 25% of fire>acid.

Thus, our conclusion was:

Our Results:

Apparently, the current order of events for elemental > X conversion is:

Base Skill > Skill Modifiers+Conversion on the Skill or Transmuter > Fire/Cold/Lightning to X Conversion on Equipment and Buffs > Elemental Damage to X Conversion on Equipment and Buffs > Equipment, Auras and Passives

And not, as might have been assumed before, Elemental Damage to X Conversion on Equipment and Buffs and then > Fire/Cold/Lightning to X Conversion on Equipment and Buffs.

That is, if we interpreted our results correctly.

Many, Many Thanks to:

sir_spanksalot for his untiring help andinvaluable info in regards to game mechanics & testing strategies & stuff.

hammyhamster1 for just being an overall mad frickin’ genius; the above theory was basically his idea.

mad_lee & x1x1x1x2 for bringing the issue to our attention.

[Cinder]

– Reserved for unknown reasons –

[sir_spanksalot]

I’ll test this later in the day with 2x barrelsmiths + pack of treacherous means on a demolitionist.

If the fire/lightning conversion indeed occurs before the ele/pierce conversion, I should see 0 pierce damage if I have:

1. No other items equipped
2. No buffs/devotions/etc. except for flame touched

EDIT: Just read that you already tested it with pack of treacherous means. Thanks for saving me the trouble

[Cinder]

EDIT: Just read that you already tested it with pack of treacherous means. Thanks for saving me the trouble

This was pretty quick to test, anyways; and I was curious whether the Valgot’s belt might just be bugged instead

[ASYLUM101]

This has been the case for a long time…

[Nxt]

From what I understand of your case, you have fire conversion weighted at 146 (50 fire to vita, 50 elemental - including fire - to vita and 46 fire to acid). So from 100 base fire damage, you will get :

• 100/146 vitality damage (around 68.5)
• 46/146 acid damage (around 31.5)

The 68.5 vitality damage compared to your expected 75 is close to that 10% vitality damage loss you’re mentioning, so maybe it’s just that.

[Cinder]

This has been the case for a long time…

Still seems to be a topic of confusion, though: How does %elemental conversion works?

Where was this mentioned before, anyways? I’d have loved to find out about it earlier!

[Cinder]

From what I understand of your case, you have fire conversion weighted at 146 (50 fire to vita, 50 elemental - including fire - to vita and 46 fire to acid)

Incorrect, unfortunately, since with ~50%fire>vit & 50% ele>vit the dmg tooltip still shows residual fire dmg (which should be 100% converted according to your thesis, right?)

[ASYLUM101]

Long time ago, before the forum cleanup. I forget who found it but it has come up a few times and zantai confirmed it was intended. If you search hard enough I’m sure you can find it.

[Cinder]

I forget who found it but it has come up a few times and zantai confirmed it was intended. If you search hard enough I’m sure you can find it.

Huh. I always thought that it was just presumed to be the other way around (meaning that ele>X occurs before single ele>X), which would have been much better for builds with both ele>X and competing single ele>X conversion values

Edit: that’s at least how it’s portrayed by game mechanics guides like this one

The fact that they apply multiplicatively, instead of additively, was ofc. known for a long time

Edit 2: Did some fairly extensive research via the forum search engine, but couldn’t find any info in regards to this being known before, though, @ASYLUM101 (apart from this thread which has an old forum link in it that might tell us about this stuff. No idea how to find it now, though). Maybe I’m just doing it wrong?

Man, I really have to get back to work, now…

[sir_spanksalot]

In Cinder’s defence, it was me who was spreading the misinformation in the first place. And in my defence ( ), my understanding is that this misconception has been around since Jov’s era.

[hammyhamster1]

Erm, well the common knowledge was confused due to 2 things:

Firstly, Zantai left the explanation at this:

ZantaiCrate Employee - Designer

Oct '17

There is a degree of sequence to how the conversion is applied.

Basically, the game tallies up all the conversion of X to Y together, then applies them. It then tallies up A to B, then applies it. Etc.

So in your case…you have Elemental to Aether, and Fire to Aether. To the game, these are different “types” and so they are applied sequentially. The order of events this occurs in would take some digging, but not sure it’s that important.

This occurs twice, first for conversion from skills, and then for conversion from gear (essentially the game tallies up conversion on skills and item independently, so Aether to Elemental on a Skill would be considered a different “type” from Aether to Elemental on an Item).

Under no circumstances can damage be converted twice though (ex. can’t do fire to aether, then aether to chaos)

Then it was apparent that the elemental order could be affected by the order of item equipping, if you were splitting to different damage types.

Ofc, if everything converts towards the same type, which is the typical case, it is a moot point and the order does not matter. The multiplication is the same no matter which order.

But this was one of the rare cases where damage is split to different types. The issue was reported over 1/2 yr ago.

I’m still not sure that Crate fixed the bug/feature but it looks like it may be the case now. I’m a bit skeptical and would like to see more confirmations; idk if it is a priority, since it is fairly rare.

This has been the case for a long time…

So you are 100% certain that the bug is fixed and elemental is always second in the order, regardless of item equip order?

[Cinder]

Well, whether it was known about before or not, the apparent continuing confusion over how elemental conversion behaves exactly should still make a(nother) clarification of the facts helpful to at least some part of this community, right?

Spreading tidbits of (mechanics-related) info out in separate small threads like this one seems kind of unhelpful, though.

Maybe we should just submit stuff like this to info collections like @malawiglenn’s guide on game mechanics, as kind of a comprehensive complement to the game guide? Because that one feels really helpful not just for beginners but for anyone uncertain about some of the trickier mechanics questions (at least that’s what it did for me a few times)

That is, if malawiglenn would be ok with this.

In Cinder’s defence, it was me who was spreading the misinformation in the first place. And in my defence ( ), my understanding is that this misconception has been around since Jov’s era.

Was it really known, though? I still remain unknowing of any hard evidence supporting this statement, whilst there appears to be plenty of the same when it comes to the ‘%ele conversion applies first’-theory (regardless of who might or might not have put it all out there first)

In any case, you really helped me up my testing game yesterday, so please don’t apologise for that!

[sir_spanksalot]

Conversion on Equipment and Buffs > Equipment, Auras and Passives...what does it actually mean?

That is different. They sort of apply at once

Also try thisthread opened by jov and replied to by zantai.

^Used to be on the old forum. I remember fluff directing me to it back when I first started crafting. Admittedly, I could be misremembering what I read.

[medea_fleecestealer]

Is this the link you’re thinking of spanks?

Elemental/single element dmg conversion question, or its a bug?

Ok, to better explain here is example: Build has 3 items equipped first has x% elemental conversion to aether, second has y% elemental conversion to aether third has z% fire conversion to aether. x%+y%+z%> 100% But build still has some portion of fire dmg in devastation breakdown. If all 3 items have elemental to aether conversion and sum of their values (x%+y%+z%) is higher than 100% build doesn’t have any fire dmg in devastation breakdown. Also if all 3 items have fire to to aether …

[Cinder]

That one just showed us that ele>X & single ele>X conversion have to happen at different points in the conversion order, but not which order that is exactly, right?

Unless I’m missing sth.

Edit: man, we really need that updated mechanics stuff compilation…

[sir_spanksalot]

Yes. And oh god, lol. I found it. My very first post:

Elemental to whatever damage conversion. And a second question regarding Aeon's.

Example:
NB’s deal primarily cold damage (in terms of elemental damage). If I have 100% elemental to pierce conversion, would I only convert 33% of my cold damage? Or would I convert all of it?

nono, all of it

Where it get’s tricky is for example cold>phys vs elemental> phys.

Let’s say you have 50% cold to phys and 30% elemental to phys. They are not additive. meaning you won’t get 80% total. One comes first ( not sure which, probably the elemental one) then comes the other to convert what is left, so it;s multiplicative .

same goes for all other global vs focused conversion. Like Cord of violent decay and decree of aldritch. You won’t get 100% fire to aether even with good rolls.

^And it got replies from the OG vets like weyu, sotnik, etc.

EDIT: Looks like I was indeed misremembering. Apologies.

[Cinder]

Elemental to whatever damage conversion. And a second question regarding Aeon's.

One comes first ( not sure which, probably the elemental one) then comes the other to convert what is left, so it;s multiplicative .

But this still seems to insinuate to me that ele>X goes before e.g. fire>X, and not the other way around…

If that’s still what we’re going for, here

[sir_spanksalot]

Sure, but it’s also rather clear that it’s based on his assumption. Then all the other less intelligent primates (e.g. like me) went on to spread this like the gospel.

Kinda like an internet game of telephone. Nice to finally ascertain that single elemental damage types take priority in the conversion sequence though.

[Cinder]

Sure, but it’s also rather clear that it’s based on his assumption. Then all the other less intelligent primates (e.g. like me) went on to spread this like the gospel.

I guess so

But at least you worked to repent for your sins in the sweat of your brow

(Bible slang meter: over 9000 and rising…)