SPOILER ALERT: Lore Discussion

Grim Dawn General Discussion
2472

LOL just reading this now. I cannot believe someone actually fell for Scorv charms and easygoing style! I guess you were in for a surprise when you returned from a mission and found out he and his top cultists put on their bone and rag outfits and moved out to the bloody altar that was conveniently behind Scorv’s house all this time. :stuck_out_tongue:
Btw, there are tons of signs that they are cannibals, especially that cookbook you find. Also the villagers make some creepy remarks about you even if they try to back out if you try to probe deeper. If you are a Shaman, there is special dialogue with one of them that gives even more clues.

I am pretty sure that altered text was written by the three (then still mortal) Witch Gods. They were already active around this time, and putting doubt in the clergy and the faithful was one of the ways they would undermine and weaken Korvaak.

2473

After delving deeply into the lore of Grim Dawn and its cosmogony, I realize that Ch’thon, Korvaak, Empyrion, the Aetherals, and the next big threat in Fang of Askernan are simply a small appetizer now that we think about it.

Ch’thon may be a threat by his insane, chaotic, and unmanifested nature, demanding his stolen blood, but when you think about it, he’s just a speck in the universe, just like the other primordial deities.

The true, absolute threat will remain the Star that hides the star, Yugol, who is always there, who has never been harmed, unlike Ch’thon, nor even chained by Korvaak. He’s simply free and can arrive at any moment.

The fact that his mere death rattle made the fucking Empyrion tremble completely sums up the power scale of this creature. I’m really, really, VERY curious to see how Crate will approach his subject, which constantly looms large in the lore of Grim Dawn.

I don’t expect to see an expansion on his hovering presence, but I might one day see the appearance of a book about the universe, telling us about his discovery, but also perhaps a tease for a possible GD2 (even though frankly, we absolutely don’t need a sequel; take your time, Crate.
Delivering a game as high quality as GD is a feat for a small studio like yours. And it shocks me that you managed to do something where big companies like Blizzard were unable to deliver something good. You have my absolute respect until my grave).

2474
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2475

Question on Anasteria:
I just recently finished her questline.
After we hand her the head of the guy from PV, it “turns out” she lied to us (a dialog option from the character) and she admits it and argues that saved lives were worth the lie.

It’s been ages since I’ve actually read the starter lines from her quests, but I can’t get it: what was a lie?

2476

I have wondered that. I think the “lie” is that she hasn’t told us she was an Aethereal or that Thelon was her colleague or that the whole point of her quest chain was to get us to assassinate Thelon. Lie is not quite the right word as she hasn’t directly said that she wasn’t an Aethereal etc etc.

But “you lied to us” is a short, punchy dialogue option compared with, “On the whole, I feel that you have misrepresented yourself and been less than candid about your past affiliations and present intentions.”

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2477

Hah, curious.
I thought “we” knew it from the get go.
At least her comment on Aether and dabbling it it’s power, her “knowing” about the possession and stuff. And the green glowy eyes, eve through the mask.

But yeah I went and checked the lore on wiki, and apparently before her comming out to us the Black Legion only knows she’s a witch.

2478

Yes, her undercover disguise is not very convincing.

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2479

Hey folks, I think I found an easter egg:

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This is the only targetable gravestone near Tyrant’s Hold, all others are not.
Any clues what this is about?

2480

Not an Easter egg, but a very early backer of the game who sadly passed away. Crate wanted to do a little homage and they had asked that their username be used so that is what happened.

Praetorian Zedlee in Homestead is another similar homage

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2481

Check out some of the graves at Twin Falls too.

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2482

Yeah, those are people who got to name things via the Kickstarter tier they bought though.

On a happier note there’s also this in the game.

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2483

Regarding Kaisan, anyone knows if he is from Kymon’s chosen group that receive Korvaak blessings, or he is already a rageflame even before Kymon worship Korvaak?

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2484

About Ch’thon and Yugol

I really don’t understand the developers’ position here. Years ago, when FoG first came out, Zantai twice claimed that Ch’thon and Yugol were completely unrelated, and that the Void was the antithesis of Life and a place of eternal pain (i.e., simply Hell), while Yugol was the antithesis of existence itself.

Then… why are their themes and servants so similar? I’m not the first to ask this question, and I’m not saying Yugol is a superfluous part of the lore (I actually really like the character). I love the angel-devil-squid trope, and we have Empyrion (Light), Ch’thon (Chaos), and Yugol (Darkness).

But I just don’t understand why anyone would say Ch’thon and Yugol are unrelated when Yugol’s servants are literally Ch’thon’s servants repainted in purple:

Hunger Embodiements from Totems and the Tomb of the Heretic

Yugol Harbinger from the Shatteted Realm

A purple version of Logghorean, I don’t remember his name, also from the Shattered Realm

Yugol tentacles in the background in the Tomb of the Heretic, which use the Logghorean tentacle model from the Necropolis

I’m not saying the developers were too lazy to make new models; I understand that many of the Chthonians are actually very Lovecraftian and would be a perfect fit for Yugol.

I think the original idea was that Ch’thon was both a demonic and Lovecraftian creature, so some of his monsters are clearly demonic in appearance, while others are clearly Lovecraftian (his strongest units and his Nemesis are literally C’thulhu). But then the developers came up with Yugol, and it took on a lot of the Lovecraftian theme. So why not remove them from the Chthonians and replace them with someone else? I understand that reusing models is fine (in Act 5, there’s a monster with a Loghorrean model that has nothing to do with Ch’thon), but with Ch’thon and Yugol, it’s a constant occurrence; Yugol literally doesn’t have a single unique unit.

Also, the Void is a term typically associated with ancient horrors, not demons. In one of Korvaak’s notes, he also mentions that other gods used the Void but are now plagued by maddening whispers, which clearly fits the theme of Yugol more than Ch’thon (I don’t recall any mention of any whispers from the Void before; it was just blood cultists, but I could be wrong).

Yet Zantai clearly insists they are unrelated; so that it’s just a coincidence that we have two Lovecraftian gods, one of whom is also a demon god, and yet they are completely unrelated? It’s just weird

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2485

What is Ch’thon is pretty clear for all of us by now (A Dying God who seeks revenge and wants all his blood back, supported by cult so-so).

Now Yugol could seem very similar due to enemy playermodels but I could try an interesting theory of mine:

Yugol is something else, something unliving… a forbitten power, not really a specific “God” you see where I am getting at?

It can corrupt anything (when you play deep Shattered Realms, you can tell it has new forms of enemy placements with its’ power - like Warden Kriev, which is act 1 boss modified with Yugols power).

How can all this be related? Perhaps borrowing hosts in it’s own will is sorta related but it acts as it’s own identity. Unlike Ch’thon who has it’s own God and has purpose or objective, Yugol doesn’t.

It just exists.

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2486

No, you can say it in this case. :rofl:

Though lazy is not the working word here, time constraint and efficiency were.

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2487

Reusing models should never be a reason ro assume “relatedness.” Hopefully, players have been exposed to enough games to know that the same model could be reused for other FICTIONAL creations in the same game or series.

However, as a game developer myself, i do believe that end-run bosses (completing an “act” or game) should be absolutely unique. Oversized and retextured or “re-FXed” models are fine for minor bosses, but the big boys, the ones that can take 5 to 20 mins to put down, they need their own manifestations.

Now i am not immersed in GD enough to track all the gods and quasi-gods, but immersive games like this one, with a thick backstory and side-plots, hopefully has been well-thought-out by the creators to answer all these questions and conundrums.
Also remember that notes and hearsay from fictional sources can also be mistaken, as in “didn’t know correctly.” Just because an NPC said something does not mean we should assume it’s the actual fictional truth, if you will.

2488

I was hoping you’d respond, but honestly, I was expecting more information about the lore! :smiley:

Anyway, was I right in saying that you decided to move away from the idea of ​​Ch’thon being both a demonic god and a Lovecraftian monster and instead bring a Lovecraftian aspect to Yugol?

2489

No?

/10char

2490

Thanks for the answers! One last question, if you have time.

As I understand it, Ch’thon and Yugol are the oldest and most powerful beings in the lore. Does Ch’thon even know/care about Yugol?

I like to think that Yugol is Ch’thon’s anti-god (since Ch’thon clearly embodies the concept of existence/creation; he created the other gods, and they needed his power to create something of their own) and, before Ch’thon fall, he was a god of light and fire, like Empyrion and Korvaak.

2491

I like to think they play bridge together, drinking a nice rich and bold Merlot, while smoking cigars.

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