I don’t understand why people are acting like adding “religion” would be problematic or controversial. Maybe it’s the current trend that everything is about “representation” that lies at the core of it? In any case I think it’s how you’re looking at it is what’s creating a problem. The same people btw. aren’t concerned about military and violent battles…
I think gamers can argue passionately about anything, not just religion. And why should discussion be a bad thing that is to be avoided in the first place?
Generally speaking humans are spiritual so it only makes sense for the settlers to have a spiritual need you have to satisfy. That’s a matter of world building and immersion.
Of course churches are associated with christianity. But it’s not like having a church building in a game is even a religious statement and I didn’t see anyone suggest christianity should be added. So why do I get the impression that’s what some people are arguing against?
In the setting the devs picked, chaples, churches and cathedrals simply make more sense than mosques or whatever else. Pagan shrines, celtic like temples and the like to start out with would be great addition, too. But they’re commonly not what we associate with development and progress, are they.
Of course in a fictional setting theoretically anything is possible. But so far the game sits on the more realistic side of a take on the medieval northern european setting - unspecific as the devs may try to be.
What this means is, magic or greek temples would feel out of place, for the great majority of players anyway. So I don’t see the upside in creating nondenominational prayer halls instead of churches when the latter is probably what most people are expecting to see because it seems natural in the setting. I don’t think anyone’s instinctive understanding of what the gameworld is can simply be overridden by stating that this is an alternate reality.
Btw. way the “realism” - or maybe believability would be a better word - both in some of the gameplay details as well as in the graphically stunning assets makes a lot of what contributes to the success of FF I think.
People are arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. If you put an item in the game that is completely optional and has no negative impact to your game play if you don’t wish to use it, and can simply ignore it, then there is no valid argument to oppose it. Plain and simple. Especially in a game you admit as “fantasy”, thus anything is possible. In your die hard attempts to oppose the idea, you’re actually giving reasons why there is no reason not too.
Someone said, we don’t “need” a church. Well, you don’t “need” a mega rock or unlimited resources either.
Why do you think that? Surely all nations and cultures went through a phase of developing, and had migration to areas they had to develop from virgin land? The maps themselves are not exclusive to any part of the geography, except for there doesn’t appear to be a desert setting - and I doubt you could set up a self-sustaining village in the middle of a desert anyway
The solution isn’t making everything that’s questioned optional. Devs said they want to build a game mechanic around religion instead of just cosmetic assets and obviously that’s way more interesting.
Also: immersion. It makes a difference wether the villagers have some sort of religious need or not.
Ultimately I agree with everything you just said. My replies of it being just a decoration item was me trying to be thoughtful and considerate of those who oppose it, by making it optional with no negative effects for those who don’t want to put one in their town.
My preferred option is just as you and the devs said.
Really? You think there is a South-East Asian tropical forest or African savannah depicted ingame? A Mayan temple would fit right in? Every biome has wolves, bears, maple trees in it.
And all cultures used the architecture the devs chose? Where outside of Europe and the early European settlements in North America do you find that?
Zero of the settlers are non-white (or even of the traders, apart from Massuke the spice trader… spices you cannot grow ingame…).
Even the music playing is in the European tradition!
And don’t get me wrong, I’m not demanding the game be more inclusive. I think it’s absolutely fine to choose one mostly coherent setting and model most things after that. I’m just confused why that should apply to everything except the religious buildings. The school doesn’t look like it’s preparing the kids for the Imperial examination, the theatre isn’t a Greek amphitheatre or shows performances at a shinto shrine, and so on and so forth.
If it had a mix of architectural styles, cultures, skin colours, biomes and different fauna and flora from all over the world, by all means, a mosque or any non-modern temple would fit right in. Or if all styles were completely fictional, or just classic Tolkien fantasy. But to seriously claim the game world as is could be anywhere…? The maps themselves are very exclusive.
In my experience in these types of discussion (i mean not just for FF) at some point someone says devs should just make whatever the topic is optional, assuming everyone would be happy. What they don’t realize is that’s simply not true and more often than not it isn’t even an option to do and still end up with a coherent design.
I believe designing something means making choices. And every choice for something is a choice against a ton of other things you could have done instead. The approach “lets try to do everyting at once” simply does not work (maybe you got a chance if you have unlimited time, money and manpower).
For example, how would anyone design an impactful religion system that at the same time is completely optional (= no impact at all)?
In the end as a designer you have to make a decision based on what you’re trying to achieve.
Sorry, basically that’s my long winded way of saying it’s not inconsiderate to do (or want) X instead of Y even though someone preferred Y.
May I point out that the mods have told us more than once that the “medieval” look of the game does not necessarily refer to Earth’s medieval era. Their take seems to be that this is a different world – and why not a different perspective on the topic of religion? Everyone argues the Earth model, but this is not the Earth model. These may be people whose perspective is totally humanist or pragmatist, rather than an ideology of belief. I “believe” Nater has given the best argument against the establishment of a religion.
Pharaoh wasn’t set in the real world either, as the gods bestowed gifts or disasters on you, and thus were very real. And yet, would you demand to see temples to Norse and Incan gods in there as well?
Or that they avoid religion, as not to “perpetuate the religious ideals of that time frame”?
I’m sure praying to Seth, the god of war and destruction, to pre-emptively slay any potential invaders, would be frowned upon in modern religious studies or ethics courses. And that’s not just something that organized religion did back then and representing said religion would therefore perpetuate it, it’s literally a game mechanic the player can actively use. No one was asking here to implement a religious order, an inquisition, to burn any “aberrant” Christians with slightly different thoughts on the interpretation of the bible at the stake.
In what way would having a church in this Medieval-like game perpetuate the beliefs of Christians 500 years ago?
I boot up Anno and see the church, now I wanna start a crusade against the infidels? I play some Tropico and next election, I’ll try to get that dictator in power?
Should we hide the wrong-doings of the past? Is that the great solution of how we can avoid repeating them? I have my doubts.
As mentioned many times here already, FF’s aesthetics are a big draw to the game, and it’s based on late Medieval European settlers. Just adding laser rifles is technically possible, as it’s a fantasy and intentionally vague, but would that really fly? The devs are free to do whatever, but I doubt the users and fanbase would enjoy being attacked by Transformers from space instead of wolves.
So from where I’m standing, that argument is a moo point. It’s like a cow’s opinion, it doesn’t matter.
(Unless stuck in a gate somewhere…)
Atheist here, first thanks to the team for this fantastic game
While in “fantasy world”, 99% of game look like medieval Christian cultural & historic era and there was absolutely no question, debate or drama on other game that added what was the core of the medieval culture of this period and location (even in fictional world).
One would not expect a 2000bc Egyptian “look like” game without pyramid, same with mosques in medieval Egypt and adding Buddhist temple there would be ridiculous and not expected by players either.
Please add “whoololo” building coherent with the historical/cultural context and at worse, let modder add Christian symbol to complete the job or transform them in mosque if some want (but I take the bet that the download would be minimal for such mod, it’s all about cultural coherence, not about what peoples believe actually).
I can understand why you would want religion to be kept a little vague and not just straight up real world religions, because some people unfortunately seem touchy about that, particularly those who consider religion to be extremely evil.
But I do think the game should be including its own fantasy religions, perhaps visually reminiscent of true world religions. For people who are familiar with the boopk series A song of ice and fire, think about how the author designed the “Old Gods” as a version of ancient European paganism, the “Faith of the Seven” as a version of medieval Christianity, the “Red God” as a version of pre-medieval Christianity/Zoroastrianism, and so on.
The main reason why religion should be included is that religion always took a central role in all pre-industrialized societies. In the past, churches were an important nexus of social life in the village, they arranged marriages and funerals, they organized charity and care for the poor, they employed healers and midwives, and so on. And monasteries were important centers of learning and economic powerhouses in the local economy.
And what I don’t understand is how people don’t want religion in a game because they “hate religion”. I personally hate war, yet I absolutely love waging war in video games. Video games and the real world are very separate things.
Same for me, I yearn for some huge stone monolithic buildings of medieval time.
Game having no castles, towers, palaces, churches or shrines just feels off.
I know game is WIP, I’m just opinionating myself here.
I have no idea why some commenters are toxic about churches and faith, it’s not like it pushes real world agenda or hurts anyone( in game)… And it fits the time setting like nothing else!
Why would you want to play medieval-inspired game, but not want medieval things in it?
I bet it’s a tiny and noisy minority in this particular context. Ton of medieval game have churches and and there was almost never any discussion, because it’s in topic. Nobody will start a new crusade after playing a medieval game.
Yet the context is 100% coherent with medieval central Europe. Loving the context while hating what was the very core of the mind, life, architecture, production and social life of those peoples doesn’t make any sense.
It’s like playing a wolf simulator, but asking vegan wolfs.
Since it’s a fantasy world and not medieval Europe, I don’t see why there should be churches. For once a medieval themed fantasy world where religious groups doesn’t posses the wealth and power to have such huge buildings.
When it comes to the aesthetics, I get that. Maybe some other beautiful structures that are not linked to religion would work. Castles I think are a bit controversial since the group of people you start with ran away from the rulers inside the castle walls. At least that’s somewhat the story when the game begins, so mabe they want to try something different, something new without castles.
I don’t have a strong opinion on this, so I’m just gonna go with what the devs will give us. After all we can all just download unity and blender for free and create our own game if we don’t like it.
