Guide: Recommended stats for end game

Introduction

Different players have fun playing the game in different ways. Being primary a single player game, your real opponent is just yourself and whatever self imposed challenges your create. But when you finally reach the max level, what should be stats you are aiming and how you decide why a build isn’t satisfactory. That’s what I am trying to create, guide with some baseline advises about the details on the character sheet panel. Of course universal stats for all character classes don’t exist and of course end game is broad concept. Anyway I will do my best: Here are the stats!

Resistances:

Very important is throughout the game to cap your resistances, that’s direct way to decrease enemies damage. But in end game, just caping them isn’t enough, you need overcaps to deal with enemy resistances shred. Usually playing in SR and especially in Crucible, enemies can stack resistance reduction shreds on you and deal easily twice the damage. So better to overcap them!

So some resistances are more important than others. On some build is impossible to have overcaps, but what you aimed for is:

  • Aether-Most important one, In Crucible you want 35% at very least, better to have more than 50%. Aether overcaps is never going to waste.

  • Elemental- Good to have 25-30% at least. Fire is important in dungeons against bosses like SharZul and Gargabol. Also cold&lightning are very important as well.

  • Vitality- Same value, very common damage type, you need it to be safe.

  • Acid- 20%-25%. Acid is popular damage type in the expansion, with Kaisan providing the biggest threat.

  • Chaos- at least 15-20%, for SR and buffless Crucible even more. Chaos isn’t what kills you usually, but still you need it.

  • Bleeding- good to have 10-15% over the top. No very common damage type, but without absorb skill like Inquisitor Seal, the DoT can drain your health. For Inquisitors is almost useless stacking bleeding res.

  • Pierce- Fabius is the only dangerous pierce enemy. Just caping it is fine.

  • Physical- specific damage type. For casters with light armor is much needed stat, same for physical builds, where the retal damage may insta kill you. For some builds 10% is fine, for some you need 25% or more. Basically the more is better, unless you sacrifice too much. Physical resistance helps with big damage hits, like Alex’s meteors.

Crowd Control Resistances:

CC resistances, most important are slow&stun. Ulo buff in Crucible doesn’t provide with slow and slow is crucial for any auto attacker/spammer. So:

  • Slow- Good to cap it on auto attackers or to have at least 50%. On kiting casters values like 30-40% is minimum.

  • Stun- In Crucible is almost useless because of Ulo’s buff. But in SR is way important. For Crucible 30% is minimum. For SR good to be 80% or close.

  • Trap- Important mainly for kiting casters, they need 80%. For other builds is less important.

  • Petrifiy- Done by some basilisk enemies. Not very common. But you need to be prepared for anything.

  • Freeze- Moosilauke is the main concern. You have nice Hoarfrost potions as backup option. So you need either freeze or potions against him.

  • Disrupt- Mostly for channeling spells like Albrecht Aether Ray. Note that most problematic disruption comes from ground pools. So don’t stand on them if you noticed the disruption. Also can be used on other archetypes.

  • Sleep- Not a thing. Plus the sleep mechanic of waking after taking damage means even if really existed, it wouldn’t be a problem.

  • Life leech- Good to have it, never make or break build, though.

Offensive Ability:

First of all, the important thing is that you can also stack Defensive Ability shred on skills and increase “effective” OA. You need at very least 2.8k effective OA in end games. Pierce and Physical builds you need lot more to trigger Assassins mark-your source of resistance reduction, which is activated with crit. Also on this builds is worth investing in cunning to improve the damage anyway. OA scales well to 3.5-3.8k. After that reaps less benefits.

Defensive Ablity:

OA shred can ease the need of DA. But you need again end game at least 2.8k. If you play Crucible or SR, you need lot more to compensate for shredding enemies like Kymon and Fabius. You need like 3k effective DA. 3.7k is the threshold. You don’t even need that much.

Health:

Formula is your level x100 health points . So for level 100, you need 10k health at least. For some classes it’s easy to have abundance, for some even reaching 10k is challenge. For SR health is nice buffer, in order to not be one shotted by nuking skills. So there 14-15k is nice minimum.

Armor:

So tough to put a number. For tanks you need 4-5k. For melee it’s good to have more, since you face tank a lot. For kiting casters, usually is tough to reach more than 2k. Bloody crystals on jewels help you reach respectable numbers. Armor is very useful for soaking small damage sources, like trash mobs damage. Some builds can feel comfortable in their skins wearing around 3k armor and having multiple sources of damage avoidance.

There’s also armor absorption. In order your armor to fully function you need 100%. It’s really worth pushing it on builds with high armor. On builds with less than 2k I rarely bother with higher than 92%.

Speed:

  • Attack speed is used on skills with auto attacks or other attacks with big Weapon Damage and no Cooldown period. Examples are; Savagery, Fire Strike, Cadence, Thunderous Strikes, Blade Arc etc. For dual wield melee is good to have close to 200%. On 2h is sometimes hard to reach high percentage. Sometimes 170% even is good number.

  • Cast speed. Used on builds with spamming spells like Panetti, Drain Essence, etc. Also on component skills like Stormfire or Chain Lighnting. Usually your target is the maximum-200%. Cast speed on theory should help too with each individual spell cast. Not sure about it :thinking:

Critical Damage:

All builds need it to shine offensively. Casters have usually more easy sources of crit. It’s really good if you have high OA to take advantage with good crit damage too.

Damage:

  • %Damage- One of the most important stats in the game offensively. Every build needs it. For builds with high weapon damage skills you need to find balance between flat and % but on builds with low or non(casters) you need that damage. For some builds you can reach preposterous numbers like over 3k%. For absolute minimum for end game build, I will write 2k. Although builds that can increase their damage through cunning or spirit can compensate.

  • Flat damage- You see this numbers on gear, devotions,etc. Sometimes you don’t think that 9 damage is big deal, but is multiplied by your % damage and have big impact to builds with high percentage of Weapon Damage. Usually some damage types can stack bigger WD than others. Also 2h melee have usually the biggest WD, same applies to chaos as damage type. But big WD isn’t necessarily transcending into results. Otherwise 2h Chaos melee would be king…

  • Total damage- You can see this bonus on gear, augments or Kraken/Korvaak devotions. It’s a percentage damage boost to all of your damage types including DoT, expect pet damage and retaliation.

Further explanation done by Sir Spanksalot:

Flat damage and %damage have a direct relationship with one another. So both are equally important.

It all depends on which you need more.

If I have 3500% chaos damage, and 100 flat chaos, stacking flat damage here makes vastly more sense, and vice versa.

[All things being equal, %damage is more important than flat, because it benefits procs and FDS.

Damage Mitigation:

There are some ways to avoid damage and different attacks. Nightblades count on that. Dodge, deflect, fumble against melee. Impaired aim too can help against range attacks. But there’s also different other important mechanics.

  • Damage Reduction- It reduce all incoming damage. Some players considered getting damage reduction skill/proc to be ABC of building the defense of your character. Damage reduction can’t stack, so one source of it it’s enough.

  • Damage absorb - Two types: Flat and %. Flat absorb stacks additive and it’s present on skills like Inquisitor seal, Ascension and Blast Shield, also on procs. % Absorb stacks multiplicatively, but having two sources won’t hurt you. Absorb damage is nice way to avoid taking damage. Skill like Inquisitor seal can make you invulnerable against small damage sources like DoT ticks from trash mobs. Percentage absorb might be useful in multiple instances.

Now look at Mage Hunter class combo- Both types of damage absorb, combined with instant damage reduction from Censure. Nice, right?

Resistance Reduction:

The holy grail of stats in end game. And you can’t even see the numbers, you need to calculate the stats. Three types of RR are existing -RR, flat and %. Only - RR have multiple sources stacking. You need one source from the other two and as much as possible from -RR.

How much resistance reduction you need/can get depends on class combo you play and also how resistant is the damage type by monsters. Usually fire and vitality are crazy resistant by mobs, so you need to stack high RR. Pierce and bleeding RR sources are scarce , but they are also less resistant by mobs. Physical is interesting case, since damage is affected by armor as well as physical resistance by the monsters.

Pets:

Pets have their one stats in the game, you’re counting on them to deal the damage, but also they need to be resilient in order not to die. Being pet master your focus is on caping resistances, have high health bar and also enough defensive ability to not be critted by random attack. And please don’t stay in the ground pools and in the direct way of attacks :stuck_out_tongue: Here are recommended pet stats by Maya:

150%+ HP
1000%+ Total dmg
90%+ attack speed
50%+ cast speed
100%+ Crit dmg
40%+ OA

As for the player, 2600+ DA, Capped primary resistances, 40%+ Phys res. You can get by without overcapping Aether/Chaos and without focusing on armor.

But ofcourse, builds vary a lot and the required amount of stats and how much you can actually get depends on your build. The above should still be a decent amount to aim for.

Player Skills:

Not a stat, but was convinced to included here. Basically how well one build can perform in Crucible or SR depends on player’s skill level. Same thing applies in Hardcore mode. In HC you need the awareness what can kill you and to know bosses mechanics. In Crucible your clear rate depends on that too. Times are function of how well you can control your AoE damage for trash clearing, combined with picking correct enemy for single target damage. So skill level can make build looks great in hands of someone’s and average in hands of other.

Final
If you have ideas and feedback, please write it! Also please look at these connected guides, they may help you!

Thanks to all players commented to thread and especially the guys providing useful information and ideas: @maya @sir_spanksalot @ya1 @BOG @x1x1x1x2 and to moderators for the approval!

🤯 malawiglenn’s guide on game mechanics for beginners

17 Likes

Thanks to the moderators for the fast approval!

It’s hard to tell what a build needs or doesn’t need, since there are so many archetypes.

For example, speed and slow res is of vital importance to an auto-attacker or a spam caster, but not so much for CDR nukers.

Same with health. I can get away with low health if I’m loaded with circuit breakers, and sustain. All I need to do is not get one-shotted.

Some things a lot of builds overlook though:

  1. %damage <-- this shit seriously adds up. (Was basically the biggest thing I tweaked on your lightning AAR)

  2. Damage reduction <— You know how people love phys res? Yeah, 25% damage reduction > 40% phys res IMO.

  3. Fumble/dodge <-- Seeing that a TONNE of things which kills you are one shots from enemies like reaper, fumble/dodge are pretty handy, albeit inconsistent.

  4. KNOW YOUR ENEMY - This is by far more important than anything else in this list. This will give you foresight as to what you can tank safely, when to use mirror, etc.

  5. Positioning - on a note very much so related to the point above, positioning is probably the best form of damage mitigation in my book.

3 Likes

Thanks a lot for the input! Will add later damage section, with the importance of % damage and when it’s useful to have flat.

I agree of course with stats being dependable on archetype and also are based on subjective opinion.

For Pets, this is what I personally like:

150%+ HP
1000%+ Total dmg
90%+ attack speed
50%+ cast speed
100%+ Crit dmg
40%+ OA

As for the player, 2600+ DA, Capped primary resistances, 40%+ Phys res. You can get by without overcapping Aether/Chaos and without focusing on armor.

But ofcourse, builds vary a lot and the required amount of stats and how much you can actually get depends on your build. The above should still be a decent amount to aim for.

4 Likes

Thanks a lot :heart:

Will Add them when I write the damage section later tonight. Also this data will be useful for me if I roll pet build in the future!

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Nice guide. But I don’t understand this division between casters and non-casters in terms of stats like oa and crit dmg. These stats function the same way on all builds. I wouldn’t say casters need more of them than other builds…

Or did you mean that casters are usually less tanky and need to have better offense in general?

Yes. Piano builds want cast speed. Not desperately but they’re happy to have it. Like you usually don’t wanna take Seal’s transmuter on vindicators because of that - low cast speed on piano builds screws with the flow. I’m usually happy with whatever value turns up but if it’s too low I’m more inclined to go for more adcth from Restless Remains. I’d say 140-150% is good.

Some animations scale with attack speed, though.

This might be debatable… Spams and autoattacks like it, too. That Valdun Mad Lee posted, I tested it independently and came to the same conclusion I later saw in Mad_Lee’s guide: Arcane Harmony pants. No disrupt res was killing the build bad.

Problem with disrupt res is that it’s nowhere to get. Outside a few specific builds like AAR with Codex of Lies it’s only on Harmony pants for non-occultists (and of Incantations affix but only 30%, correct me if I forgot sth). So most people just got used to not having it because it’s never there.

Just sharing: I consider anything above 3k tanky. 5k after the warlord nerfs is… idk… Fervor S&B warlord with Targos devotion can get that much, little else.

I noticed that it’s more important than it used to be. Pre-FG, I used to avoid Ravager Eyes like the plague, stopped stacking after 2.8-2.9k, and was able to pilot my way out of gimmicky glass cannons with 2.5k. Not anymore. Hard 3k is needed, especially when armor/phys res/overcaps aren’t perfect.

2 Likes

Agree with this fully. Disrupt is HUGELY important. “of the gildam arcanum” suffix is of extreme value to me for this reason.

Dunno if I agree with this fully mate. Depends largely on the build, and things like OA debuffs, etc.

A good baseline for me is 2.8 - 2.9k IF I’ve got other atypical forms of defence:

  • Mirror
  • Blastshield
  • High CDR
  • Absurd adcth
  • etc.

But if I’m rocking a adcth-less caster naked? 3.1k DA doesn’t feel adequate.

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It all depends, sure. For example I just remade my dervish, and I’m kinda steaming because look:

Looking good, no? The core stats. Res is all good. Standard nightblade’s oa shred, fumble and dodge. Ascension, Resilience, Ghoul, 16% adcth, everything… Also Stonetreads proc, and some other stuff.

Nope. Build is practically unplayable in endgame, and that’s despite the crazy dmg (~5:30). Goes from 20k health to zero in 0.1 second at random. Endgame became inaccessible to the majority of builds (at least the melee ones) that don’t have those extra layers of defense like million health, armor and phys res, Mirror-MoT, pets to tank, high dmg redux/absorb, etc. Dervishes (without Aeon to get 100% Ascension, SR set or PB for total sustain) don’t have those extras and thus are hardly playable even with what seems to be very decent stats.

3 Likes

Okay. Some things I wanna say.

  1. I’d rather overcap pierce than bleed/acid. Bleed just isn’t threatening to invest more than 80% and acid is not affordable for most builds that aren’t occultist.

  2. Casters don’t need more OA than weapon builds. Look at mad_lee’s latest vindicator for example. I think it should be more of a class to class basis. Inquisitors will have a hard time getting 3k without cunning dumps. Many arcanists on the other hand will have lots of effortless OA so it’s helpful to increase it more. Something like amplifying strengths instead of covering weaknesses principle.

  3. DA is more of a comfort stat. Some people can play with 2.8k but some just can’t do it even at DA cap (okay, exaggerating).

  4. spanks pointed out %damage. That’s kinda a new meta thing, when people started chasing cruci timers. If you just wanna make a stable endgame build 2100% on main damage and a bit lower than that on the dot counterpart is okay.

  5. When you get to the most powerful stat in the game, RR, it would be helpful to do a per damage type breakdown. Some stuff like vit can just go easy 200% but others not so much.

4 Likes

You might need haunted steels, and even then, it may not be enough.

New crucible is especially harsh to melee builds, I’ll agree to that wholeheartedly

Nah… Courageous Tincture. Adcth and dmg is good enough. Thing is 15k crits. Can’t hide from them on melee. Btw I posted in my old dervish thread. Sad that such concepts are no longer viable without crutches. RIP build diversity.

I think it’s a reflection of the state acid damage is in, more so than DW as a whole.
(E.g. - belgo, warborn, shattered realm DW melee, justice shieldbreakers, etc.)

If the strongest acid build (i.e. VB Dervish) is unable to consistently clear buffed/bannered without pharma… :confused:

I’ve said this a million and one times, and I’ll say it again - For the vast majority of acid builds, it’s permascension or bust.

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Agree with ya and spanks. I’m playing basically melee only and for the player that currently has rig towards the lower end (and doesn’t have mad piloting skills) it’s very frustraiting to play Crucible. Incoming burst dmg in melee range is sometimes so overwhelmingly high, any micro misplay (or the buff button didn’t press due to lag or you didn’t see the enemy cast due to low resolution) leads to immediate death during the toughest waves even with the most beefy builds.

My first ever build was Tactician with SR set and 22/12 seal. I was clearing 1.1.3 Crucible in 9 minutes and it felt ok and reasonably challenging. Now i can easily die standing on a 430 dmg absorb seal, with 30% all res overcapped and constantly leeching.

I’m not sure i’m competent to judge here but if i had to guess the reason of such difficulty bump is even a slight increase in health of one of the bosses means you will have to endure more debuffs during several seconds than you used to. But those boss debuffs are so massive it sometimes results in basically halving your build’s survivability for those several seconds.

Back to the topic. In my opinion disrupt is MORE important to melee builds. Because with melee you need to spend much more time on one spot and disrupt cancels all the skills. So your are useless as melee in the disrupt pool as well as a caster.

Also to melee. 169 can absolutely obliterate any melee build with aether dmg if you didn’t manage to single out the target’s. I’d say if you don’t have dmg absorb you need 65+ aether overcap for Crucible.

And finally. In my opinion Displacement with it’s 4.2 cd is no longer viable for no movement skill class combos in melee because you need to gtfo from facetanking much more frequent than that.

2 Likes

Man, even 4k armour means your build invests into it very deeply! 5k usually means it invests everything into it. “Normal” tanky builds have ~3k armour. I’d also add, that most of the time armour is much more important, than physical resistance.

It mostly depends on your build alone. Sure, some items provide small bonuses to it, but overall, the lion’s share of your critical damage bonus is defined by your build - whether you have access to buffs like Divine Mandate, skill modifiers like Disintegration, constellations like Dying god, etc. And of course, the more Critical Damage the build possesses, the more important is to have high OA.

About resistances…
Archmage Alexander can reduce ALL your resistances by ~50… Several other enemies can apply -40 all res debuff. Anasteria… well, just focus her - no sane overcap would make you safe.

All builds you mentioned are top-tier sets overloaded phys res, armor and/or fat da bonuses. And most of them are soldiers. Outside those very narrow specifications melee hardly exists. What about hundreds of other builds?

But if they were to nerf VB damage for some 6% or so scraps of phys res then no thanks.

Yeah… And again, RIP diversity. Go for Aeon or die.

See? Preaching to the choir.

I wouldn’t say not viable but yeah… I switched to Breath of Amatok with 2.5s cooldown on all my cold builds but also on this Venomblade. It’s awesome. Even 120% run speed doesn’t hurt with it. And does it proc!

I don’t think I’m phrasing myself clearly here.

What I mean to say is that yes, DW builds need to gravitate towards certain core stats - e.g. phys res (belgo infil), armor (warborn eor), or some combination of the 2 (justice breakers, shattered realm set).

These are basically “core stats” for this archetype.

Likewise, there are core stats for the caster archetype too, e.g. CDR, %damage, etc.

Build diversity, to me at least, arises when multiple builds can achieve a sufficient level of these core stats through a series of different approaches, not the complete obliteration of these stats.

So for example, like with the belgo set, you can opt to go phys res heavy via the infiltrator, or go armor + DA heavy, via the blademaster.

Admittedly, it is a spectrum (e.g. a build with a lot of -RR might be able to make do with less %damage), with the width of this spectrum depending on how extremely you can stack a particular core stat.

How the VB dervish used to survive, as you certainly know, was by stacking damage. You go in, and get out asap, trusting poison to kill enemies.

This allowed greater width in that aforementioned spectrum.

Remove this away from the dervish, and it loses its balance point.

There are 2 possibly viable workarounds this that I know of (I say “possibly” because adopting one of these solutions may still prove inadequate):

  1. Assuming that GDstash is an option, the most straightforward of which is through greens. I.e. you use god-tier affixes to replace what you’ve lost, especially because most legendary acid itemization is straight up a joke given the current difficulty of GD’s end game.

  2. The second is permascension. However, this itself may not garauntee a builds viability. I’m talking out of my ass here, and maybe you can confirm this, but my suspicion is that permascension may not be sufficient enough to fix the dervish, as you’d have to sacrifice a lot for it.

So what happens?

People utilize BOTH solutions.

GG-greens + Permascension = Highest chance of viable acid builds

EDIT: Might be worth for us to first define what “viable” is.

If you set the standard at “beating all MC content minus super bosses,” then sure. VB dervish is extremely viable.

But if we were to define it as a (3 + 1) 7min clear, with 90 - 100% clear consistency in the hands of an average pilot, then things change radically.

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^If and only if you can stack armor sufficiently high.

For most casters, phys res is infinitely more important.

@banana_peel - right. couldn’t agree more. But IMO it’s hard for casters to stack a reasonable amount of armor because of the low armor value on caster gear. Which makes sense. For you to stack armor to that optimal point may eat away at your “core stats”

It’s often easier to just get phys res, and trust your circuit breakers.

I didn’t have the time today but will rewrite the guide later tonight or tomorrow. You made some valid points, will change it some sections. And of course will add damage information, damage mitigation and pets info.

About melee discussion, I personally play almost exclusively DW melee so can’t help but notice how mighty have fallen. You basically needs a complete tank or greens to tackle both Crucible and SR. My SR set Infiltrator exceeds in both.

I personally liked in early FG days how DW melee ruled in Crucible and how good tanks and casters were in SR. Nowadays casters are all around winners. You don’t need to face tank everything and still dish AoE damage across the screen. 2h pure melee is the worst archetype. Korba Trickster with 220k DPS can’t beat wave 154 and dies if someone looks it bad. Blazerush Elementalist do a 9 minutes runs if he doesn’t die from CC. As whole in Crucible and SR even, CC+damage bursts can kill almost every melee in a flash.

But this is matter of another discussion. I won’t write about meta in my guide, since it’s something which is shifting a lot.

It’s important to separate armor and phys res and not choose between the two. They reduce basically the same thing independently - and both have increasing returns. In short, armor protects from bursts (tanking 4 hard hitters) and shotguns, phys res protects from oneshot abilities such as Alex’s meteor.

Stacking both to a reasonable point gives more than overinvesting in one: even with 40% phys res you’ll die from a shoutgun with 1k effective armor and even 5k armor wont save you from a 20k meteor crit if you have 10% phys res.

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